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.NET/C#'s competitor JVM/Kotlin does provide a UI framework (Jetbrains Compose) that runs on iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, and the web. That's what you ha

.NET/C#'s competitor JVM/Kotlin does provide a UI framework (Jetbrains Compose) that runs on iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Linux, and the web. That's what you have to compare against, and .NET/C# falls flat.

notpushkin 2y ago
Jetbrains is a third party vendor here, too.
- kuschku 2y ago
  A third party vendor for the Kotlin language? Kotlin has replaced Java as C#'s largest competitor, so that's what we should be comparing against.
  - toyg 2y ago
    > Kotlin has replaced Java as C#'s largest competitor Er, I don't think this assertion is backed by data. See for example https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html Is Kotlin the most "active", "hot", or "up-and-coming" competitor? Possibly. But the "largest"? Its deployed footprint and popularity are nowhere close to Java's at this point in time.
pjc50 2y ago
That's also not part of the JVM or the Java language.
neonsunset 2y ago
No and it's not even close. Kotlin only has a single Jetbrains Compose (I presume Kotlin Multiplatform is the same thing). It is also subject to the quirks and specifics of JVM implementations, build-systems and package management. Kotlin native partially bypasses this, but its performance is a factor of 0.1-0.01x vs OpenJDK (if there is new data - please let me know). This is very unlike NativeAOT which is on average within 90% of CoreCLR JIT but is also a performance improvement in variety of scenarios. C# and F# get to enjoy the integration that is "much closer to the metal" as well as much richer cross-platform GUI frameworks ecosystem with longer history.
- kuschku 2y ago
  Which rich cross-platform GUI frameworks are you talking about? Win32? Silverlight/Blend? XAML? MAUI? They're all windows only. Gtk? Qt? Sure, they exist, but they're ancient and limited to long outdated paradigms. I don't know if you can get QtQuick with KDE Kirigami to work on .NET, otherwise that might be one option. Kotlin Multiplatform is btw a solution for building the same code for kotlin native, JVM and web to target all the OSes at the same time. While Jetpack Compose is the Android Version of Compose, Compose Multiplatform is Compose for Kotlin Multiplatform. > subject to the quirks and specifics of JVM implementations, build-systems and package management That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    There are more than 10 sibling and gp comments that exhaustively address the GUI and other questions :) > That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET. Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet. If you want to sell me on "advantages" of invoking Gradle or Maven over dotnet new web dotnet run curl localhost:port or dotnet new console --aot echo 'Console.WriteLine($"Right now is {DateTime.Now}");' > Program.cs dotnet publish -o {here goes the executable} or dotnet add package {my favourite package} I suppose you would actually need 12 years of improvements given how slow if ever these things get resolved in Java land. Also, what's up with Oracle suing companies for using incorrect JDK distribution that happens to come with hidden license strings attached?
    - kuschku 2y ago
      > {my favourite package} Well, that's where the problem lies, isn't it? The ecosystem for .NET is extremely limited compared to what's available for the JVM And the way JVM packages are distributed, with native libraries, BOMs and platforms allows more versatility than any other platform. The build system may be better in dotnet, but that only really matters for the first 10 minutes. Afterwards, the other tradeoffs become much more important.

notpushkin 2y ago

Jetbrains is a third party vendor here, too.

kuschku 2y ago
A third party vendor for the Kotlin language? Kotlin has replaced Java as C#'s largest competitor, so that's what we should be comparing against.
- toyg 2y ago
  > Kotlin has replaced Java as C#'s largest competitor Er, I don't think this assertion is backed by data. See for example https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html https://pypl.github.io/PYPL.html Is Kotlin the most "active", "hot", or "up-and-coming" competitor? Possibly. But the "largest"? Its deployed footprint and popularity are nowhere close to Java's at this point in time.

pjc50 2y ago

That's also not part of the JVM or the Java language.

neonsunset 2y ago

No and it's not even close. Kotlin only has a single Jetbrains Compose (I presume Kotlin Multiplatform is the same thing). It is also subject to the quirks and specifics of JVM implementations, build-systems and package management. Kotlin native partially bypasses this, but its performance is a factor of 0.1-0.01x vs OpenJDK (if there is new data - please let me know). This is very unlike NativeAOT which is on average within 90% of CoreCLR JIT but is also a performance improvement in variety of scenarios. C# and F# get to enjoy the integration that is "much closer to the metal" as well as much richer cross-platform GUI frameworks ecosystem with longer history.

kuschku 2y ago
Which rich cross-platform GUI frameworks are you talking about? Win32? Silverlight/Blend? XAML? MAUI? They're all windows only. Gtk? Qt? Sure, they exist, but they're ancient and limited to long outdated paradigms. I don't know if you can get QtQuick with KDE Kirigami to work on .NET, otherwise that might be one option. Kotlin Multiplatform is btw a solution for building the same code for kotlin native, JVM and web to target all the OSes at the same time. While Jetpack Compose is the Android Version of Compose, Compose Multiplatform is Compose for Kotlin Multiplatform. > subject to the quirks and specifics of JVM implementations, build-systems and package management That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  There are more than 10 sibling and gp comments that exhaustively address the GUI and other questions :) > That's a massive advantage over the arcane package management and build systems of .NET. Very few languages ever achieve a build and package management system as mature and usable as the Java ecosystem. I've been waiting for 12 years for .NET to match Java's ecosystem, and it's still not there yet. If you want to sell me on "advantages" of invoking Gradle or Maven over dotnet new web dotnet run curl localhost:port or dotnet new console --aot echo 'Console.WriteLine($"Right now is {DateTime.Now}");' > Program.cs dotnet publish -o {here goes the executable} or dotnet add package {my favourite package} I suppose you would actually need 12 years of improvements given how slow if ever these things get resolved in Java land. Also, what's up with Oracle suing companies for using incorrect JDK distribution that happens to come with hidden license strings attached?
  - kuschku 2y ago
    > {my favourite package} Well, that's where the problem lies, isn't it? The ecosystem for .NET is extremely limited compared to what's available for the JVM And the way JVM packages are distributed, with native libraries, BOMs and platforms allows more versatility than any other platform. The build system may be better in dotnet, but that only really matters for the first 10 minutes. Afterwards, the other tradeoffs become much more important.