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>In addition, the hidden assumption is that all static and dynamic typing are created equal, i.e., since Haskell is statically typed and Haskell appears to have

>In addition, the hidden assumption is that all static and dynamic typing are created equal, i.e., since Haskell is statically typed and Haskell appears to have caught Python bugs that unit tests did not, therefore Java will catch bugs in a Ruby codebase, C++ will catch bugs in a JavaScript codebase, etc. That assumption isn't hidden, it is made up. By you. The question was "can static typing catch bugs that made it past a decent (and common) test suite". The answer to that can drive interest in static typing, and thus more language with useful static type systems. Just because java has a crappy type system, doesn't mean we should be content with that.

davesims 14y ago
> That assumption isn't hidden, it is made up. By you. Not at all. The assumption is clearly implied by the conclusion of the study, which makes an unwarranted equivalence of all languages that have 'static type checking': "The translation of these four software projects from Python to Haskell proved to be an effective way of measuring the effects of applying static type checking to unit tested software." > Just because java has a crappy type system, doesn't mean we should be content with that. I don't know what this means. If the study was meant to comprehend such a broad category as 'static type systems,' and from the explicit language of the study, it clearly was, then absolutely Java must necessarily be included. Otherwise, the study, as I noted, should have restricted its conclusions to a scope of Haskell vs. Python, with at most modest and well-qualified statements regarding the broader implications of static vs. dynamic in general.
- papsosouid 14y ago
  >which makes an unwarranted equivalence of all languages that have 'static type checking': No it doesn't. Read what you quoted, it says nothing even remotely resembling "this benefit applies to all languages with static typing". It is testing static typing, not a specific language. It uses the best static typing system to do so. You are entirely inventing the notion that this must then apply to java. > If the study was meant to comprehend such a broad category as 'static type systems,' and from the explicit language of the study, it clearly was, then absolutely Java must necessarily be included No it mustn't. Comparing the best of dynamic vs the best of static is a useful test. Just as nobody is complaining they didn't use a worse language than python, it makes no sense to complain they didn't use a worse language than haskell. You don't draw conclusions about the potential of X by examining the worst example of X possible.
  - cantankerous 14y ago
    This. Not all statically typed languages are created equal. Java's type system is old and is not state of the art. I wish people would stop using it as a straw man when anybody brings up static typing. Java was state of the art 20 years ago, but it's definitely not the case any more.
    - davesims 14y ago
      Had the study qualified itself to merely "Haskell vs. Python" with deference given to the statistical significance of the sample size, you'd have a point. It wasn't me that brought all static typing, which of course includes Java, into the question at hand -- it was the study itself.
      - papsosouid 14y ago
        Yes, it was you. Why do you think the comparison should be "really bad static type system" vs "really good dynamic type system"? In what way does that make the test more useful? Allow me to say this again, as I do not know how to be any clearer: You do not test the potential of something by using the worst possible example of it. The only point of your desire is to reinforce the strawman that java = static typing. A test of "do airbags help prevent deaths" would be a very poor test if it used anything other than the best possible airbag technology.
        cantankerous 14y ago
        Since this hasn't been already mentioned, and I run the risk of really flaming things up. Java has a very high propensity of generating runtime type errors. This is easily done by skirting the type checker with casting, which is commonplace. The upshot of me saying this is that I'm actually on the fence of even considering Java to be a statically-typed language for this reason...which is part of why I disagree with the parent even using it as an example of a statically typed language equivalent to the one from this post in a counterexample (also included in this is C, C++, and the rest of that family).

davesims 14y ago

> That assumption isn't hidden, it is made up. By you. Not at all. The assumption is clearly implied by the conclusion of the study, which makes an unwarranted equivalence of all languages that have 'static type checking': "The translation of these four software projects from Python to Haskell proved to be an effective way of measuring the effects of applying static type checking to unit tested software." > Just because java has a crappy type system, doesn't mean we should be content with that. I don't know what this means. If the study was meant to comprehend such a broad category as 'static type systems,' and from the explicit language of the study, it clearly was, then absolutely Java must necessarily be included. Otherwise, the study, as I noted, should have restricted its conclusions to a scope of Haskell vs. Python, with at most modest and well-qualified statements regarding the broader implications of static vs. dynamic in general.

papsosouid 14y ago
>which makes an unwarranted equivalence of all languages that have 'static type checking': No it doesn't. Read what you quoted, it says nothing even remotely resembling "this benefit applies to all languages with static typing". It is testing static typing, not a specific language. It uses the best static typing system to do so. You are entirely inventing the notion that this must then apply to java. > If the study was meant to comprehend such a broad category as 'static type systems,' and from the explicit language of the study, it clearly was, then absolutely Java must necessarily be included No it mustn't. Comparing the best of dynamic vs the best of static is a useful test. Just as nobody is complaining they didn't use a worse language than python, it makes no sense to complain they didn't use a worse language than haskell. You don't draw conclusions about the potential of X by examining the worst example of X possible.
- cantankerous 14y ago
  This. Not all statically typed languages are created equal. Java's type system is old and is not state of the art. I wish people would stop using it as a straw man when anybody brings up static typing. Java was state of the art 20 years ago, but it's definitely not the case any more.
  - davesims 14y ago
    Had the study qualified itself to merely "Haskell vs. Python" with deference given to the statistical significance of the sample size, you'd have a point. It wasn't me that brought all static typing, which of course includes Java, into the question at hand -- it was the study itself.
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      Yes, it was you. Why do you think the comparison should be "really bad static type system" vs "really good dynamic type system"? In what way does that make the test more useful? Allow me to say this again, as I do not know how to be any clearer: You do not test the potential of something by using the worst possible example of it. The only point of your desire is to reinforce the strawman that java = static typing. A test of "do airbags help prevent deaths" would be a very poor test if it used anything other than the best possible airbag technology.
      - cantankerous 14y ago
        Since this hasn't been already mentioned, and I run the risk of really flaming things up. Java has a very high propensity of generating runtime type errors. This is easily done by skirting the type checker with casting, which is commonplace. The upshot of me saying this is that I'm actually on the fence of even considering Java to be a statically-typed language for this reason...which is part of why I disagree with the parent even using it as an example of a statically typed language equivalent to the one from this post in a counterexample (also included in this is C, C++, and the rest of that family).