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Renewables have the problem on both sides though, they overproduce and underproduce. And the variability of this overproduction and underproduction is much grea

Renewables have the problem on both sides though, they overproduce and underproduce. And the variability of this overproduction and underproduction is much greater than any nuclear plant.

natmaka 2y ago
This was a major ordeal as long as we could not conveniently store massive amounts of electricity nor transport it far away, or quickly and frequently balance the grid (hence the need for 'baseload' generation). Those challenges vanished ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current , https://www.nrdc.org/experts/kevin-steinberger/debunking-three-myths-about-baseload https://www.nrdc.org/experts/kevin-steinberger/debunking-thr... ...)
- realusername 2y ago
  None of those are good enough to store even just a few days of a country's production, let alone weeks or months.
  - natmaka 2y ago
    Source? None of those are meant to be sufficient ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy ), as for any system this is for the complete set of ways to reach the 'good enough' stage: a continental ( https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-could-provide-more-stable/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-... ) mix (wind, solar, geothermal, biomass...) backed up by storage, clean backup (green hydrogen)...
    - realusername 2y ago
      The source is your own link, the biggest US battery can sustain a few minutes of the country's consumption. We aren't in the "good enough" stage but more "we need a breakthrough" stage. We are multiple orders of magnitude away to use those at a large scale. For green hydrogen that's pretty much the same issue, the efficiency is beyond terrible and we would need another breakthrough there. That's why no country on earth is managing with those.
      - natmaka 2y ago
        Which source states that more than a few minutes will be necessary, once the adequate continental system (storage: including V2G and similar ways such as Powerwalls) will be in place? > the efficiency is beyond terrible ... when used in transportation. Green hydrogen produced then stored nearby a turbine or fuel cell acting as backup for the grid efficiency is similar to fossil fuels' or nuclear (about .3 to .4). > That's why no country on earth is managing with those. No, that's because all this (especially industrial renewable sources, really soaring in the 2000's) is too new, this is a work in progress starting with production: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...
        realusername 2y ago
        > Which source states that more than a few minutes will be necessary, once the adequate continental system (storage: including V2G and similar ways such as Powerwalls) will be in place? Ever looked at an electricity demand graph? The electricity demand isn't linear, it's not linear in a day, not linear in a week and especially not linear in months either in the northen hemisphere. And the more you decarbonize the economy, the worse it's going to get for renewables here since fossil fuels are used for highly non linear usage. > Green hydrogen produced then stored nearby a turbine or fuel cell acting as backup for the grid efficiency is similar to fossil fuels' or nuclear (about .3 to .4). You are mixing up two things. Nuclear, since it's a baseload technology, only needs to adapt itself to the demand, the production can mostly be planned. Renewables on the other hand need to adapt both the demand and the production. Those efficiencies figures aren't needed for nuclear because you don't need P2G or any of that, you can just adjust the production. So you get the usual production. Nuclear doesn't drop abruptly to 5% capacity and those bandaid solutions aren't really needed. What you are quoting is the efficiency of the production, which is a totally different subject. The efficiency of the production is more of an indication of how far you can actually go in the future.

Renewables have the problem on both sides though, they overproduce and underproduce. And the variability of this overproduction and underproduction is much greater than any nuclear plant.

natmaka 2y ago

This was a major ordeal as long as we could not conveniently store massive amounts of electricity nor transport it far away, or quickly and frequently balance the grid (hence the need for 'baseload' generation). Those challenges vanished ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_energy_storage_system , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current , https://www.nrdc.org/experts/kevin-steinberger/debunking-three-myths-about-baseload https://www.nrdc.org/experts/kevin-steinberger/debunking-thr... ...)

realusername 2y ago
None of those are good enough to store even just a few days of a country's production, let alone weeks or months.
- natmaka 2y ago
  Source? None of those are meant to be sufficient ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy ), as for any system this is for the complete set of ways to reach the 'good enough' stage: a continental ( https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-could-provide-more-stable/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/180592/european-cooperation-... ) mix (wind, solar, geothermal, biomass...) backed up by storage, clean backup (green hydrogen)...
  - realusername 2y ago
    The source is your own link, the biggest US battery can sustain a few minutes of the country's consumption. We aren't in the "good enough" stage but more "we need a breakthrough" stage. We are multiple orders of magnitude away to use those at a large scale. For green hydrogen that's pretty much the same issue, the efficiency is beyond terrible and we would need another breakthrough there. That's why no country on earth is managing with those.
    - natmaka 2y ago
      Which source states that more than a few minutes will be necessary, once the adequate continental system (storage: including V2G and similar ways such as Powerwalls) will be in place? > the efficiency is beyond terrible ... when used in transportation. Green hydrogen produced then stored nearby a turbine or fuel cell acting as backup for the grid efficiency is similar to fossil fuels' or nuclear (about .3 to .4). > That's why no country on earth is managing with those. No, that's because all this (especially industrial renewable sources, really soaring in the 2000's) is too new, this is a work in progress starting with production: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...
      - realusername 2y ago
        > Which source states that more than a few minutes will be necessary, once the adequate continental system (storage: including V2G and similar ways such as Powerwalls) will be in place? Ever looked at an electricity demand graph? The electricity demand isn't linear, it's not linear in a day, not linear in a week and especially not linear in months either in the northen hemisphere. And the more you decarbonize the economy, the worse it's going to get for renewables here since fossil fuels are used for highly non linear usage. > Green hydrogen produced then stored nearby a turbine or fuel cell acting as backup for the grid efficiency is similar to fossil fuels' or nuclear (about .3 to .4). You are mixing up two things. Nuclear, since it's a baseload technology, only needs to adapt itself to the demand, the production can mostly be planned. Renewables on the other hand need to adapt both the demand and the production. Those efficiencies figures aren't needed for nuclear because you don't need P2G or any of that, you can just adjust the production. So you get the usual production. Nuclear doesn't drop abruptly to 5% capacity and those bandaid solutions aren't really needed. What you are quoting is the efficiency of the production, which is a totally different subject. The efficiency of the production is more of an indication of how far you can actually go in the future.