5 ms·

Question for people that build hacks: given how robust this open-source anti-cheat is, does building the cheat give more reward than playing the game? It seems

by nathas 2y ago

Question for people that build hacks: given how robust this open-source anti-cheat is, does building the cheat give more reward than playing the game? It seems like it would take a ton of hours to be effective..

Iridescent_ 2y ago
Well of course if you sell it
- nathas 2y ago
  I meant the intangible, personal gratification that comes with pwning noobs as a reward but fair enough :)
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    > pwning noobs Who says they're not?
  - drdaeman 2y ago
    I don't get how pwning noobs is gratifying at all. It's just griefing and for a normal sane person there's no fun in seeing other people suffer. It's like wrestling with toddlers. Proper "cheating" is not about wreaking havoc. Although there are plenty of weird people who do weird things - but cheats are not a problem, they just enable those weirdos to do weird things. It's just automation, all about offloading work to a machine - a principle that the whole human civilization is built upon. And developing an aid that actually helps you to improve is - surely - a personally gratifying experience. If someone has difficulties doing something the "intended" way, but can think of and implement an alternative approach to achieve the same effect - that's just humans being humans, it's as fair as life can be.
Etheryte 2y ago
Just like any software, game cheats are build once, sell as many times as you can. If a game is popular, this can be a very lucrative business. The fact that game developers will play the cat and mouse game with you to block you out only adds to this fact, as so long as you can keep up, you can get repeat customers.
- nathas 2y ago
  Now I want to read an article about the economics of selling game hacks. I just assumed they weren't really worth the investment to build since the number of people that want to cheat seems low. After typing that I realize this is like coming to understand just how many people are on steroids to get a physique they want. It's like nah no one takes steroids except EVERY HUGE PERSON you've ever seen, barring the extremely rare genetic outliers. Fascinating.
  - shdh 2y ago
    This is a pretty good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI7V60r7Jco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI7V60r7Jco
  - shdh 2y ago
    These are two good videos overviewing particular hack sites if you can get past the AI anime voice: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmcFjpB8no https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmcFjpB8no * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOhOY7PcIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOhOY7PcIg
  - zonkerdonker 2y ago
    Would recommend this podcast from Darknet Diaries. [1] Not quite an article, but there is a transcript if you'd prefer to read. Includes interview with the people actually selling these hacks, and it is fascinating [1] https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/115/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/115/
  - glitter_warrior 2y ago
    IIRC this darknet diaries episode does a good job covering the whole issue and talking about the economics - https://darknetdiaries.com/transcript/115/ https://darknetdiaries.com/transcript/115/
  - n4bz0r 2y ago
    Despite the obnoxious intro, this interview turned out to be pretty interesting and answered a number of my questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwruk-tLIOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwruk-tLIOU
hypeatei 2y ago
There is huge money in making cheats and this one seems to operate in userspace only. Most cheats and anti-cheats these days are running in lower rings (kernel or device driver) I believe there is also hardware cheats but I'm not sure how common those are. EDIT: See "DMA cheats" or "DMA cards"
- miffe 2y ago
  It's pretty common. Valve is now banning certain keyboards from CS2.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    What do these keyboards do? Presumably it is something more sophisticated than a key combination macro.
    - wnevets 2y ago
      In this instance one of the things they do is ignore keypresses at certain times > Razer and Wooting’s SOCD features both let players automate switching strafe directions without having to learn the skill. Normally, to switch strafe directions in a first-person shooter, you have to fully release one key before pressing the other. If both are pressed, they cancel each other, and you stand there for a moment until you release one of the keys. SOCD means you don’t need to release a key and you can rapidly tap the A or D key to counter-strafe with little to no effort. [1] [1] https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/20/24224261/valve-counter-strike-2-razer-snap-tap-wooting-socd-ban-kick https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/20/24224261/valve-counter-st...
      - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
        Huh. That seems like such a weird, minor advantage to attempt to ban. I expect most anyone playing FPS would pick this up naturally. Also seems impossible to ban given the ubiquity of custom keyboards running something like QMK. Those run user code and could send a fake vendor id to the host.
shdh 2y ago
Developing a cheat is far easier than developing an anti-cheat. Its a constant arms race, at least until the AC devs bow out. There is no 100% perfect solution. There are tons of ways to circumvent anti-cheats using a second computer as well.
2four2 2y ago
I've built hacks to undermine recurring payment structures in games. It has very little to do with cheating, and everything to do with fighting a corporate trend that I would like to see abolished in games. Gaming companies care far more about these kind of hacks, but frequently lump them into the "cheating" category for better optics.
- PhasmaFelis 2y ago
  When I see a game that sucks on purpose, my solution is to simply play a good game instead, rather than spend hours trying to work around the suckage. Bad games don't deserve your time any more than they deserve your money.
  - beeboobaa3 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker > A hacker is a person skilled in information technology who achieves goals by non-standard means.
GuB-42 2y ago
> does building the cheat give more reward than playing the game? Absolutely! At least for the kind of people who like cracking games. Think of it as a puzzle game. Being able to play the game as a cheater is like getting the final weapon in a game where it requires completing the most challenging part. You have fun for a bit, destroying everything in your path, that's your reward, but you quickly lose interest as you have nothing interesting left to do.
martin_ 2y ago
yes- I have been out of the "game" for a while, but, the economics are strong. Used to sell bots that could automate tasks to get gold in various games (WoW and Runescape as examples) and we had customers that would buy 100s of licenses monthly and had factories that they'd use to farm and then sell the gold on eBay, etc.
qdot76367 2y ago
I mod games to add buttplug.io support. Most of my users seem to agree that yes, it is more reward than just playing the game.
Hikikomori 2y ago
It's not robust and neither is anything out there really effective except for Riots anticheat, though they put in immense effort.

by nathas 2y ago

Iridescent_ 2y ago

Well of course if you sell it

nathas 2y ago
I meant the intangible, personal gratification that comes with pwning noobs as a reward but fair enough :)
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  > pwning noobs Who says they're not?
- drdaeman 2y ago
  I don't get how pwning noobs is gratifying at all. It's just griefing and for a normal sane person there's no fun in seeing other people suffer. It's like wrestling with toddlers. Proper "cheating" is not about wreaking havoc. Although there are plenty of weird people who do weird things - but cheats are not a problem, they just enable those weirdos to do weird things. It's just automation, all about offloading work to a machine - a principle that the whole human civilization is built upon. And developing an aid that actually helps you to improve is - surely - a personally gratifying experience. If someone has difficulties doing something the "intended" way, but can think of and implement an alternative approach to achieve the same effect - that's just humans being humans, it's as fair as life can be.

Etheryte 2y ago

Just like any software, game cheats are build once, sell as many times as you can. If a game is popular, this can be a very lucrative business. The fact that game developers will play the cat and mouse game with you to block you out only adds to this fact, as so long as you can keep up, you can get repeat customers.

nathas 2y ago
Now I want to read an article about the economics of selling game hacks. I just assumed they weren't really worth the investment to build since the number of people that want to cheat seems low. After typing that I realize this is like coming to understand just how many people are on steroids to get a physique they want. It's like nah no one takes steroids except EVERY HUGE PERSON you've ever seen, barring the extremely rare genetic outliers. Fascinating.
- shdh 2y ago
  This is a pretty good video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI7V60r7Jco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI7V60r7Jco
- shdh 2y ago
  These are two good videos overviewing particular hack sites if you can get past the AI anime voice: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmcFjpB8no https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QmcFjpB8no * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOhOY7PcIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOhOY7PcIg
- zonkerdonker 2y ago
  Would recommend this podcast from Darknet Diaries. [1] Not quite an article, but there is a transcript if you'd prefer to read. Includes interview with the people actually selling these hacks, and it is fascinating [1] https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/115/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/115/
- glitter_warrior 2y ago
  IIRC this darknet diaries episode does a good job covering the whole issue and talking about the economics - https://darknetdiaries.com/transcript/115/ https://darknetdiaries.com/transcript/115/
- n4bz0r 2y ago
  Despite the obnoxious intro, this interview turned out to be pretty interesting and answered a number of my questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwruk-tLIOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwruk-tLIOU

hypeatei 2y ago

There is huge money in making cheats and this one seems to operate in userspace only. Most cheats and anti-cheats these days are running in lower rings (kernel or device driver) I believe there is also hardware cheats but I'm not sure how common those are. EDIT: See "DMA cheats" or "DMA cards"

miffe 2y ago
It's pretty common. Valve is now banning certain keyboards from CS2.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  What do these keyboards do? Presumably it is something more sophisticated than a key combination macro.
  - wnevets 2y ago
    In this instance one of the things they do is ignore keypresses at certain times > Razer and Wooting’s SOCD features both let players automate switching strafe directions without having to learn the skill. Normally, to switch strafe directions in a first-person shooter, you have to fully release one key before pressing the other. If both are pressed, they cancel each other, and you stand there for a moment until you release one of the keys. SOCD means you don’t need to release a key and you can rapidly tap the A or D key to counter-strafe with little to no effort. [1] [1] https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/20/24224261/valve-counter-strike-2-razer-snap-tap-wooting-socd-ban-kick https://www.theverge.com/2024/8/20/24224261/valve-counter-st...
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
      Huh. That seems like such a weird, minor advantage to attempt to ban. I expect most anyone playing FPS would pick this up naturally. Also seems impossible to ban given the ubiquity of custom keyboards running something like QMK. Those run user code and could send a fake vendor id to the host.

shdh 2y ago

Developing a cheat is far easier than developing an anti-cheat. Its a constant arms race, at least until the AC devs bow out. There is no 100% perfect solution. There are tons of ways to circumvent anti-cheats using a second computer as well.

2four2 2y ago

I've built hacks to undermine recurring payment structures in games. It has very little to do with cheating, and everything to do with fighting a corporate trend that I would like to see abolished in games. Gaming companies care far more about these kind of hacks, but frequently lump them into the "cheating" category for better optics.

PhasmaFelis 2y ago
When I see a game that sucks on purpose, my solution is to simply play a good game instead, rather than spend hours trying to work around the suckage. Bad games don't deserve your time any more than they deserve your money.
- beeboobaa3 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker > A hacker is a person skilled in information technology who achieves goals by non-standard means.

GuB-42 2y ago

> does building the cheat give more reward than playing the game? Absolutely! At least for the kind of people who like cracking games. Think of it as a puzzle game. Being able to play the game as a cheater is like getting the final weapon in a game where it requires completing the most challenging part. You have fun for a bit, destroying everything in your path, that's your reward, but you quickly lose interest as you have nothing interesting left to do.

martin_ 2y ago

yes- I have been out of the "game" for a while, but, the economics are strong. Used to sell bots that could automate tasks to get gold in various games (WoW and Runescape as examples) and we had customers that would buy 100s of licenses monthly and had factories that they'd use to farm and then sell the gold on eBay, etc.

qdot76367 2y ago

I mod games to add buttplug.io support. Most of my users seem to agree that yes, it is more reward than just playing the game.

Hikikomori 2y ago

It's not robust and neither is anything out there really effective except for Riots anticheat, though they put in immense effort.