4 ms·

> There is a massive amount of viable geography for this all over the world Massive? Where in Germany would you store 1,000 GWh of energy, to run the country f

> There is a massive amount of viable geography for this all over the world Massive? Where in Germany would you store 1,000 GWh of energy, to run the country for half a day or so?

olddustytrail 2y ago
That amount of storage would not be built because it would literally never be required.
- LorenPechtel 2y ago
  You need more than that. My memory is that solar needs something like 16 hours of storage assuming perfect weather. And it gets much worse if you don't have perfect weather.
  - olddustytrail 2y ago
    No you don't need more than that because electricity grids do not consist entirely of a single form of generation. Have you considered learning something about this topic before commenting?
    - pydry 2y ago
      Judging from their other comment I think they seem to be some kind of nuclear/anti-environmentalist zealot. In this comment they assumed wind power didn't exist. In the other comment they said that my current electricity tariff (3) would get people lynched and crater the economy rather than getting me to put my laundry, dishwasher and car charger on at a different time of day. This kind of abject extremism is sadly par for the course on topics like this due to the kind of propaganda that the nuclear industry spews out. It generates zealots.
      - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
        Have you ever looked at a graph of wind generation? There are periods of multiple days with minimal wind https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Profile-of-wind-power-generation-in-the-UK-a-in-the-period-2017-2018-b-normalized_fig1_357177231 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Profile-of-wind-power-ge... If you disagree with the view that half a day of backup is reasonable, then provide a specific number and justification.
        pydry 2y ago
        Yes, obviously I did because you responded to it below. I find it amusing that when I cited a study that modeled exactly this scenario you poured scorn on it because it was modeled around a specific country. You didn't respond with actual figures demonstrating that this altered the results significantly, you just said "AUSTRALIA EASY MODE". Seriously? Yet the guy that presumed that the wind doesnt blow... ever? You didnt respond to that. It's an interesting insight into the mind of a nuclear activist.
      - LorenPechtel 2y ago
        I'm certainly not anti-environment. It's just I recognize that the only path forward that is both possible and not horribly destructive is nuclear. The technology to make renewables practical simply does not exist even on the horizon. The storage problem is always handwaved away with "batteries" or "hydrogen"--the greens never do the numbers because that will expose the fact it doesn't work. Renewables reduce oil and gas use. Period. You still need just as much generating capacity and you still release a lot of CO2. And in that other comment what I said is that going pure renewable would get people lynched for how badly they wrecked the economy. The "green" approach is basically "pay no attention to the fact that the storage tech does not exist." In the real world we see it *increasing* emissions. (Shut down nuke, the load falls onto gas because it actually exists.) What would happen to our economy if power was dollars per kWh?? Because that's what it would take to ensure the lights always stay on in a pure renewable environment.
        pydry 2y ago
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      Renewables are intermittent and thus can only be used to offset capacity that can easily be throttled back. That's oil and gas. Solar + wind + nuke, might as well simply use nuke for just about everything. An environment with a bunch of renewables is effectively forced to use fossil fuel.
  - pydry 2y ago
    I mean, if you assume that the wind has never once blown at night in the history of the world then sure, you'd probably need something like 16 hours. But, if you assume the existence of wind turbines (I hope that isn't too much of a stretch for you): https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-near-100-per-cent-renewables-grid-is-well-within-reach-and-with-little-storage/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-near-100-per-cent-renewables-g... >With that in mind, exactly one year ago I started running a simple simulation of Australia’s main electricity grid to show that it can get very close to 100% renewable electricity with approximately five hours of storage
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      Australia is easy mode, good solar irradiance year round and deserts. Ofcourse you should use renewables where they are abundant. Germany has very few renewables, so do the math for them.
      - ViewTrick1002 2y ago
        The Swedish grid authority did it for Sweden. Came to the conclusions that a renewable system are way cheaper than a nuclear. Report in Swedish though: https://www.svk.se/siteassets/om-oss/rapporter/2024/lma_2024.pdf https://www.svk.se/siteassets/om-oss/rapporter/2024/lma_2024... Where will you move the goalposts now?
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      You need to provision for the worst case, not for the best case.
      - pydry 2y ago
        Worst case scenarios can be provisioned for by storing and burning hydrogen. The roundtrip cost of electricity generated this way is expensive (it's ~50% efficient) but even then it is still cheaper than the cost of baseload nuclear power electricity. Give up already.
natmaka 2y ago
It can be solved at continental-level. Germany already sells part of its overproduction (wind, solar...) to Austria and Switzerland, to have it stored by their dams.
- chickenbig 2y ago
  > It can be solved at continental-level. Whatever happened to the notion of local/decentralised energy? Plus it relies on countries at both ends wanting the interconnection. Sweden and Norway are not so happy about other countries taking their hydro energy when it suits the market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthConnect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthConnect https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-says-no-new-power-cable-germany-2024-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-s...
  - natmaka 2y ago
    > local/decentralised energy When it comes to gridpower working at continental-level is, and for quite a while, the best way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Network_of_Transmission_System_Operators_for_Electricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Network_of_Transmissi... > relies on countries at both ends wanting the interconnection Exactly as, right now, each and every country in the continental grid sometimes starts a production unit in order to help a neighbor in need. Everyone gains by playing according to this rule. > taking their hydro energy Because, right now, the system is far from being complete: not enough production units deployed on the continent, interconnections, lines, storage... This transition, a huge ordeal, is in progress.
    - chickenbig 2y ago
      > working at continental-level is, and for quite a while, the best way The larger the interconnection the bigger the failure domain. See also https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/european-clocks-lose-six-minutes-dispute-power-electricity-grid https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/european-clock... which shows that power is political. > help a neighbor in need. Everyone gains by playing according to this rule. Not so for Norway, where electrical prices have gone up as a result of all of these inter-connectors and a drought. Norwegian people and businesses have lost out. Politicians have taken note. https://watt-logic.com/2022/11/22/norway-energy-security/ https://watt-logic.com/2022/11/22/norway-energy-security/

> There is a massive amount of viable geography for this all over the world Massive? Where in Germany would you store 1,000 GWh of energy, to run the country for half a day or so?

olddustytrail 2y ago

That amount of storage would not be built because it would literally never be required.

LorenPechtel 2y ago
You need more than that. My memory is that solar needs something like 16 hours of storage assuming perfect weather. And it gets much worse if you don't have perfect weather.
- olddustytrail 2y ago
  No you don't need more than that because electricity grids do not consist entirely of a single form of generation. Have you considered learning something about this topic before commenting?
  - pydry 2y ago
    Judging from their other comment I think they seem to be some kind of nuclear/anti-environmentalist zealot. In this comment they assumed wind power didn't exist. In the other comment they said that my current electricity tariff (3) would get people lynched and crater the economy rather than getting me to put my laundry, dishwasher and car charger on at a different time of day. This kind of abject extremism is sadly par for the course on topics like this due to the kind of propaganda that the nuclear industry spews out. It generates zealots.
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      Have you ever looked at a graph of wind generation? There are periods of multiple days with minimal wind https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Profile-of-wind-power-generation-in-the-UK-a-in-the-period-2017-2018-b-normalized_fig1_357177231 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Profile-of-wind-power-ge... If you disagree with the view that half a day of backup is reasonable, then provide a specific number and justification.
      - pydry 2y ago
        Yes, obviously I did because you responded to it below. I find it amusing that when I cited a study that modeled exactly this scenario you poured scorn on it because it was modeled around a specific country. You didn't respond with actual figures demonstrating that this altered the results significantly, you just said "AUSTRALIA EASY MODE". Seriously? Yet the guy that presumed that the wind doesnt blow... ever? You didnt respond to that. It's an interesting insight into the mind of a nuclear activist.
    - LorenPechtel 2y ago
      I'm certainly not anti-environment. It's just I recognize that the only path forward that is both possible and not horribly destructive is nuclear. The technology to make renewables practical simply does not exist even on the horizon. The storage problem is always handwaved away with "batteries" or "hydrogen"--the greens never do the numbers because that will expose the fact it doesn't work. Renewables reduce oil and gas use. Period. You still need just as much generating capacity and you still release a lot of CO2. And in that other comment what I said is that going pure renewable would get people lynched for how badly they wrecked the economy. The "green" approach is basically "pay no attention to the fact that the storage tech does not exist." In the real world we see it *increasing* emissions. (Shut down nuke, the load falls onto gas because it actually exists.) What would happen to our economy if power was dollars per kWh?? Because that's what it would take to ensure the lights always stay on in a pure renewable environment.
      - pydry 2y ago
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago
    Renewables are intermittent and thus can only be used to offset capacity that can easily be throttled back. That's oil and gas. Solar + wind + nuke, might as well simply use nuke for just about everything. An environment with a bunch of renewables is effectively forced to use fossil fuel.
- pydry 2y ago
  I mean, if you assume that the wind has never once blown at night in the history of the world then sure, you'd probably need something like 16 hours. But, if you assume the existence of wind turbines (I hope that isn't too much of a stretch for you): https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-near-100-per-cent-renewables-grid-is-well-within-reach-and-with-little-storage/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-near-100-per-cent-renewables-g... >With that in mind, exactly one year ago I started running a simple simulation of Australia’s main electricity grid to show that it can get very close to 100% renewable electricity with approximately five hours of storage
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    Australia is easy mode, good solar irradiance year round and deserts. Ofcourse you should use renewables where they are abundant. Germany has very few renewables, so do the math for them.
    - ViewTrick1002 2y ago
      The Swedish grid authority did it for Sweden. Came to the conclusions that a renewable system are way cheaper than a nuclear. Report in Swedish though: https://www.svk.se/siteassets/om-oss/rapporter/2024/lma_2024.pdf https://www.svk.se/siteassets/om-oss/rapporter/2024/lma_2024... Where will you move the goalposts now?
  - LorenPechtel 2y ago
    You need to provision for the worst case, not for the best case.
    - pydry 2y ago
      Worst case scenarios can be provisioned for by storing and burning hydrogen. The roundtrip cost of electricity generated this way is expensive (it's ~50% efficient) but even then it is still cheaper than the cost of baseload nuclear power electricity. Give up already.

natmaka 2y ago

It can be solved at continental-level. Germany already sells part of its overproduction (wind, solar...) to Austria and Switzerland, to have it stored by their dams.

chickenbig 2y ago
> It can be solved at continental-level. Whatever happened to the notion of local/decentralised energy? Plus it relies on countries at both ends wanting the interconnection. Sweden and Norway are not so happy about other countries taking their hydro energy when it suits the market. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthConnect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorthConnect https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-says-no-new-power-cable-germany-2024-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/swedish-government-s...
- natmaka 2y ago
  > local/decentralised energy When it comes to gridpower working at continental-level is, and for quite a while, the best way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Network_of_Transmission_System_Operators_for_Electricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Network_of_Transmissi... > relies on countries at both ends wanting the interconnection Exactly as, right now, each and every country in the continental grid sometimes starts a production unit in order to help a neighbor in need. Everyone gains by playing according to this rule. > taking their hydro energy Because, right now, the system is far from being complete: not enough production units deployed on the continent, interconnections, lines, storage... This transition, a huge ordeal, is in progress.
  - chickenbig 2y ago
    > working at continental-level is, and for quite a while, the best way The larger the interconnection the bigger the failure domain. See also https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/european-clocks-lose-six-minutes-dispute-power-electricity-grid https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/european-clock... which shows that power is political. > help a neighbor in need. Everyone gains by playing according to this rule. Not so for Norway, where electrical prices have gone up as a result of all of these inter-connectors and a drought. Norwegian people and businesses have lost out. Politicians have taken note. https://watt-logic.com/2022/11/22/norway-energy-security/ https://watt-logic.com/2022/11/22/norway-energy-security/