4 ms·

How about no tax on people below the poverty line? When I was young it always killed me to make so little and still pay taxes.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwaway48540 2y ago
That's pretty hard to do when the absolute majority of the sum of taxes is paid by poor people. Even if you taxed the rich at 99%, it would be short by orders of magnitude - and then of course you have to consider https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve Also, there's a distinction between people below the poverty line, and young people making little wages in their early jobs. Why shouldn't we tax the rich kid working at McDonald's because their trust fund requires them to work for a decade before they get access to it?
- r3trohack3r 2y ago
  Interested in digging deeper, do you have a source for this: > That's pretty hard to do when the absolute majority of the sum of taxes is paid by poor people. Even if you taxed the rich at 99%, it would be short by orders of magnitude
- bena 2y ago
  The Laffer curve is just kind of made up. He just said "I believe this is how it should work" and then tried to make it work, even though it never quite does. And it often turns in results that its proponents don't like.
- alemanek 2y ago
  When you account for all taxes this may be true but for just income taxes it isn’t. According to the link below the bottom 50% makeup just 2.34% of income taxes paid. So, eliminating income taxes and maybe adding a return free filing option for the bottom 50% of households looks super doable. Source: https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxe...
  - hoosieree 2y ago
    Income taxes don't affect every person equally though. Plenty of Very Rich people earn zero income.
    - alemanek 2y ago
      Yep and that is a separate issue that needs to be addressed. When you have people who are so wealthy that they can switch their nationality on a whim then that requires special solutions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kbolino 2y ago
  From the perspective of government receipts, the bulk of taxes are paid by the middle, not the tails. The rich don't have enough numbers, and the poor don't have enough money, to offset the area under the middle of the curve. This isn't true everywhere, but is true in the US and most developed countries.
- jfdjkfdhjds 2y ago
  your first point is the only thing this whole discussion should be about... the second one is insanity :)
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
There is argument against and in favour. France works like that and it means a lot of people don’t pay taxes and in return don’t feel very connected to the state spending. It’s weird but I think a token amount of tax completely offset by state handovers is preferable to no tax purely from a mind set point of view (you too are part of the collective and contribute to the working of the state). The whole thing is a bit disingenuous anyway when so much of tax revenue actually comes from VAT and other indirect taxes.
_yb2s 2y ago
Isn't that essentially already the case in the USA? The standard deduction for a single person is $14,600/year and the federal property level is very close to that at $15,060/year. It's kind-of weird how these levels are set equal nationwide... as there are regions where this is a decent living and one could own a small single family home or condo, an older but reliable car, and eat well on that salary... and places where you would be homeless and have no day to day security or stability required to even keep a job.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Are you being serious no one eats well on $15k/year.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Nonsense.... I lived on under 10k/year for close to a decade in rural Oregon- a while enough ago that that would be about $14k/year now adjusted for inflation. I had a decent 2 bedroom apartment, two older but reliable cars I got for nearly free at auto auctions and a fast motorcycle, and cooked my own meals 3x/day from top quality local farmers market ingredients. I'm talking REALLY good food, the best quality fresh local meat and vegetables money can buy, that was the one thing I would not compromise on. I traveled a lot for fun also, but it was in my own (very fuel efficient) vehicles, cooking for myself on a camp stove while traveling and I could only afford restaurants a few times a year. Almost all of my possessions like furniture, etc. were high quality things I had slowly sourced for free over craigslist, with some dumpster diving and word of mouth. Mostly high end vintage hardwood stuff that looked expensive- Rich people don't sell that stuff, they give or throw it away. Personally, I felt like I was living very comfortably, and I quite enjoyed the challenge of living frugally. I felt a bit smug about how I creatively found ways to have pretty nice things, and a nice lifestyle without much cost. I'll add that nowadays I'm into 'sea foraging' and can jump in the ocean with a mask and a pole spear and eat like a king for free in a few minutes.
    - stonogo 2y ago
      I think if you look you'll find that housing costs have rapidly outpaced inflation, even in rural Oregon. Studio flats in La Grande are approaching a thousand dollars a month. I believe what you're saying is true, but I don't think the experiment could be replicated today.
carlosjobim 2y ago
I always found it strange that modern socialists and leftists are very supportive of income taxes, even though it is a dreadful burden on those people who have to work for their survival. Why wouldn't leftists instead be more for taxes and tariffs on land, on commerce, on natural resources or on luxuries? The funny thing is that one of the goals of the communist party in the Soviet Union was to abolish all income taxes! Khrushchev even lamented later that they couldn't reach that goal. I suspect many hackers would have loved to be members of the Supreme Soviet, but how would they have reacted when Khrushchev suggested to abolish all income taxes?
- throaway827 2y ago
  one reason is that it's hard for a leftist to imagine a world where people making millions or billions to have a 0% income tax rate
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    People don't make millions or billions on working and receiving a salary.
- slater 2y ago
  > I always found it strange that modern socialists and leftists are very supportive of income taxes, even though it is a dreadful burden on those people who have to work for their survival What? We did "trickle-down" economics before. Surprisingly enough, it didn't work. At all. Also, back in the 1950s/60s, we thoroughly soaked the rich and got to go to the moon[0]. Then the 1970s came around and the new gen of wealthies were all "yeah nah, that sucked, let's do something about it!"[1] [0] in b4 "it's way more complicated than that!!1~" [1] https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    When I say it's a dreadful burden, I mean it. For people doing physical labour and relying on their work for survival, they know exactly how much blood, sweat and tears they had to give for each dollar taken from them in taxes. For the people relying on real estate price appreciation for their income, taxes are more of an abstract.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

throwaway48540 2y ago

That's pretty hard to do when the absolute majority of the sum of taxes is paid by poor people. Even if you taxed the rich at 99%, it would be short by orders of magnitude - and then of course you have to consider https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve Also, there's a distinction between people below the poverty line, and young people making little wages in their early jobs. Why shouldn't we tax the rich kid working at McDonald's because their trust fund requires them to work for a decade before they get access to it?

r3trohack3r 2y ago
Interested in digging deeper, do you have a source for this: > That's pretty hard to do when the absolute majority of the sum of taxes is paid by poor people. Even if you taxed the rich at 99%, it would be short by orders of magnitude
bena 2y ago
The Laffer curve is just kind of made up. He just said "I believe this is how it should work" and then tried to make it work, even though it never quite does. And it often turns in results that its proponents don't like.
alemanek 2y ago
When you account for all taxes this may be true but for just income taxes it isn’t. According to the link below the bottom 50% makeup just 2.34% of income taxes paid. So, eliminating income taxes and maybe adding a return free filing option for the bottom 50% of households looks super doable. Source: https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxe...
- hoosieree 2y ago
  Income taxes don't affect every person equally though. Plenty of Very Rich people earn zero income.
  - alemanek 2y ago
    Yep and that is a separate issue that needs to be addressed. When you have people who are so wealthy that they can switch their nationality on a whim then that requires special solutions.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kbolino 2y ago
From the perspective of government receipts, the bulk of taxes are paid by the middle, not the tails. The rich don't have enough numbers, and the poor don't have enough money, to offset the area under the middle of the curve. This isn't true everywhere, but is true in the US and most developed countries.
jfdjkfdhjds 2y ago
your first point is the only thing this whole discussion should be about... the second one is insanity :)

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

There is argument against and in favour. France works like that and it means a lot of people don’t pay taxes and in return don’t feel very connected to the state spending. It’s weird but I think a token amount of tax completely offset by state handovers is preferable to no tax purely from a mind set point of view (you too are part of the collective and contribute to the working of the state). The whole thing is a bit disingenuous anyway when so much of tax revenue actually comes from VAT and other indirect taxes.

_yb2s 2y ago

Isn't that essentially already the case in the USA? The standard deduction for a single person is $14,600/year and the federal property level is very close to that at $15,060/year. It's kind-of weird how these levels are set equal nationwide... as there are regions where this is a decent living and one could own a small single family home or condo, an older but reliable car, and eat well on that salary... and places where you would be homeless and have no day to day security or stability required to even keep a job.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
Are you being serious no one eats well on $15k/year.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Nonsense.... I lived on under 10k/year for close to a decade in rural Oregon- a while enough ago that that would be about $14k/year now adjusted for inflation. I had a decent 2 bedroom apartment, two older but reliable cars I got for nearly free at auto auctions and a fast motorcycle, and cooked my own meals 3x/day from top quality local farmers market ingredients. I'm talking REALLY good food, the best quality fresh local meat and vegetables money can buy, that was the one thing I would not compromise on. I traveled a lot for fun also, but it was in my own (very fuel efficient) vehicles, cooking for myself on a camp stove while traveling and I could only afford restaurants a few times a year. Almost all of my possessions like furniture, etc. were high quality things I had slowly sourced for free over craigslist, with some dumpster diving and word of mouth. Mostly high end vintage hardwood stuff that looked expensive- Rich people don't sell that stuff, they give or throw it away. Personally, I felt like I was living very comfortably, and I quite enjoyed the challenge of living frugally. I felt a bit smug about how I creatively found ways to have pretty nice things, and a nice lifestyle without much cost. I'll add that nowadays I'm into 'sea foraging' and can jump in the ocean with a mask and a pole spear and eat like a king for free in a few minutes.
  - stonogo 2y ago
    I think if you look you'll find that housing costs have rapidly outpaced inflation, even in rural Oregon. Studio flats in La Grande are approaching a thousand dollars a month. I believe what you're saying is true, but I don't think the experiment could be replicated today.

carlosjobim 2y ago

I always found it strange that modern socialists and leftists are very supportive of income taxes, even though it is a dreadful burden on those people who have to work for their survival. Why wouldn't leftists instead be more for taxes and tariffs on land, on commerce, on natural resources or on luxuries? The funny thing is that one of the goals of the communist party in the Soviet Union was to abolish all income taxes! Khrushchev even lamented later that they couldn't reach that goal. I suspect many hackers would have loved to be members of the Supreme Soviet, but how would they have reacted when Khrushchev suggested to abolish all income taxes?

throaway827 2y ago
one reason is that it's hard for a leftist to imagine a world where people making millions or billions to have a 0% income tax rate
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  People don't make millions or billions on working and receiving a salary.
slater 2y ago
> I always found it strange that modern socialists and leftists are very supportive of income taxes, even though it is a dreadful burden on those people who have to work for their survival What? We did "trickle-down" economics before. Surprisingly enough, it didn't work. At all. Also, back in the 1950s/60s, we thoroughly soaked the rich and got to go to the moon[0]. Then the 1970s came around and the new gen of wealthies were all "yeah nah, that sucked, let's do something about it!"[1] [0] in b4 "it's way more complicated than that!!1~" [1] https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  When I say it's a dreadful burden, I mean it. For people doing physical labour and relying on their work for survival, they know exactly how much blood, sweat and tears they had to give for each dollar taken from them in taxes. For the people relying on real estate price appreciation for their income, taxes are more of an abstract.