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I've known several, but I've worked at aerospace companies, and the level of rigor is necessary.

renewiltord 2y ago
I don't think this myth will last after we've seen what software Boeing has built. Rigour in these industries appears to be just "build broken stuff slowly then blame someone else".
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  The fact that someone does it badly does not mean that it is never done well.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    People used to make this claim about the primes all the time. That the reason they are so expensive is that they're rigorous and all that shit. It turns out that Space Shuttle style code means "blows up for all sorts of reasons". The primes are expensive not because they're rigorous but because they're good at government contracting. They're going to get outcompeted soon. SpaceX and Tesla have shown that there is an opportunity in government contracting. Now, newer organizations are going to be "rigorous" in their own ways.
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      > It turns out that Space Shuttle style code means "blows up for all sorts of reasons". Do you have any evidence for that claim? (And don't point me to the two Shuttle explosions. Neither of those were a software failure.)
      - renewiltord 2y ago
        Sure, consulting rate and contact is in profile.
        AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        You publicly make a claim, but when asked for evidence you won't provide any without payment? That's... certainly the boldest response I've ever seen to a request for evidence.
        renewiltord 2y ago
        The 'claim' is information freely given. From my point of view, if you choose to believe something I don't think is true, that's a problem for you not for me. If you want me to convince you of something, you have to pay. If I asked someone something and they responded with a rate, I'd pay if the facts were worth it and I wouldn't if they weren't.
bee_rider 2y ago
I mean, EE’s often go and design toys and other little frivolous things that aren’t safety critical. I think we should not pin the Engineer title on something like safety or importance, that is probably why people wanted to be Software Engineers in the first place. Because it sounds important. Having done the EE curriculum and then gone to program instead (to make my bias apparent), IMO the engineer’s distinction is that they work in a model, the bounds of the model are well known, the model isn’t all of physics, and the model is simplified enough that work can be checked within it. The brilliance of engineering is that you can do productive work, on hard tasks, without being brilliant.

I don't think this myth will last after we've seen what software Boeing has built. Rigour in these industries appears to be just "build broken stuff slowly then blame someone else".

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
The fact that someone does it badly does not mean that it is never done well.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  People used to make this claim about the primes all the time. That the reason they are so expensive is that they're rigorous and all that shit. It turns out that Space Shuttle style code means "blows up for all sorts of reasons". The primes are expensive not because they're rigorous but because they're good at government contracting. They're going to get outcompeted soon. SpaceX and Tesla have shown that there is an opportunity in government contracting. Now, newer organizations are going to be "rigorous" in their own ways.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    > It turns out that Space Shuttle style code means "blows up for all sorts of reasons". Do you have any evidence for that claim? (And don't point me to the two Shuttle explosions. Neither of those were a software failure.)
    - renewiltord 2y ago
      Sure, consulting rate and contact is in profile.
      - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        You publicly make a claim, but when asked for evidence you won't provide any without payment? That's... certainly the boldest response I've ever seen to a request for evidence.
        renewiltord 2y ago
        The 'claim' is information freely given. From my point of view, if you choose to believe something I don't think is true, that's a problem for you not for me. If you want me to convince you of something, you have to pay. If I asked someone something and they responded with a rate, I'd pay if the facts were worth it and I wouldn't if they weren't.

bee_rider 2y ago

I mean, EE’s often go and design toys and other little frivolous things that aren’t safety critical. I think we should not pin the Engineer title on something like safety or importance, that is probably why people wanted to be Software Engineers in the first place. Because it sounds important. Having done the EE curriculum and then gone to program instead (to make my bias apparent), IMO the engineer’s distinction is that they work in a model, the bounds of the model are well known, the model isn’t all of physics, and the model is simplified enough that work can be checked within it. The brilliance of engineering is that you can do productive work, on hard tasks, without being brilliant.