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Some of it was Kremlin propaganda. They supported anti nuclear stuff , anti renewables stuff and anti fossil fuel extraction stuff. The end effect being peopl

Some of it was Kremlin propaganda. They supported anti nuclear stuff , anti renewables stuff and anti fossil fuel extraction stuff. The end effect being people in Europe would be dependent on buying natural gas from Russia.

pydry 2y ago
That quite the conspiracy theory.
- zweifuss 2y ago
  Sergei Tretyakov made such claims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligence_officer) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligen... Stasi and green activist contacts are also documented. (Most funding came from fossile fuel orgs/persons, not eastern block.) https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated-greens/a-36024911 https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated-...
  - pydry 2y ago
    >Sergei Tretyakov made such claims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligen... I didn't see anything in that in that wikipedia article about it. Besides, the claims of defectors are frequently exaggerated and fall apart. They have a strong tendency to try to say what they think their audience want to hear. >Stasi and green activist contacts are also documented. (Most funding came from fossile fuel orgs/persons, not eastern block.) https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated- https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated-... This article is 0% about the conspiracy theory and 100% about how the stasi tried to infiltrate a political party - which is, yes, quite plausible. As I said, it's quite the conspiracy theory.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      The Stasi infiltrated and tried to influence every organization they could get half a toehold in, in both the BRD/DDR. That doesn't mean they favored (or otherwise sought to promote) all of the aims and goals of the organizations. Or even any of their aims, necessary. Their primary goal in doing so was, first and foremost, that of their very motto: To know everything
- LorenPechtel 2y ago
  Doesn't need to be a big conspiracy. Find groups that are saying what you want said, help them along. Simple test. Look for issues which aren't really green but which benefit Moscow (and these days, Beijing.) Where do the "green" groups stand? I haven't been paying attention for quite a while because I spotted too many such things long ago and figured Moscow was pulling the strings.
aguaviva 2y ago
Some of it was Kremlin propaganda. Care to cite some examples? You know, the factual kind?
- lainga 2y ago
  Vladimir Bukovsky charged the Western disarmament movement (in particular the CND) with taking Soviet funding in the 1980s. YMMV up to your credence in him. https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00153R000300020014-2.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00153R0003000...
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The concern here was nuclear power, not arms.
    - lainga 2y ago
      "Our external strategic objectives, as decided by delegates at our annual conference, are: ... 4) The closure of the Nuclear Power Industry." Nuclear power is not, as a photograph of a banner on the CND's website tells me, the answer to climate chaos. https://cnduk.org/about/aims-and-objectives/ https://cnduk.org/about/aims-and-objectives/
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Noted, but to the extent the Soviets may have aided the CND -- their interest seems to have been in its pro-disarmament, rather than its anti-nuclear industry stance. If we go by the article you provided (and I am skimming it properly) - it doesn't mention nuclear power at all.
  - wewxjfq 2y ago
    The nuclear disarmament movement achieved nothing and just because the Soviets supported something and maybe groomed some members doesn't mean they were pulling the strings. Having read about the KGB in London makes it seem like it was a pretty amateurish organization that never recovered from Operation FOOT. There are allegations that a leader of the Labour Party was a KGB agent, and still no one would insinuate that the Labour Party was a front of the KGB.
ethbr1 2y ago
The Soviets were pretty big on "nuclear all the things", given their expertise in it. (Chernobyl being more of an economic and operational/communication fuckup) And also, it was a better solution to their particular set of challenges: powering remote installations far from the nearest urban center (and powerplant). Anti-nuclear sentiment in Europe seems to have hardened as a consequence of (a) Chernobyl, (b) Germany realizing they'd be on the front lines in any war, & (c) various other nuclear incidents (US and UK).
- philwelch 2y ago
  There’s nothing inconsistent about the Soviets favoring nuclear energy for their own country while promoting anti-nuclear propaganda in the West.
  - Arrath 2y ago
    In fact its self serving, in that reducing your own reliance on oil frees up more of your production for sale. Lets not forget that the latter Soviet Union was in large part propped up by the proceeds from its oil sales.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    That feels like disempowering Western European environmental movements excessively. They weren't Soviet puppets: they formed their own positions and advocated for them. (Another reason I missed above: the conflation of nuclear power with nuclear weapons)
    - philwelch 2y ago
      I would say that "useful idiots" is a better term than "puppets".
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        It's a shortcut to an argument to remove agency and substitute in a foreign hand, but it rarely captures the reality of a situation. There's usually far too much squabbling inside a given volunteer group for any external pressure to be able to redirect their will.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> Some of it was Kremlin propaganda. Last month a bus caught fire in some random village in Czech Republic and apparently that was Putin’s fault too. This is getting to the point where I have to check if he is hiding in the closet before I leave the house Meanwhile we have dozens of official think tanks influencing our politics and their sources of funding are not disclosed. Could be oil companies, could be China, could be the devil himself!

pydry 2y ago

That quite the conspiracy theory.

zweifuss 2y ago
Sergei Tretyakov made such claims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligence_officer) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligen... Stasi and green activist contacts are also documented. (Most funding came from fossile fuel orgs/persons, not eastern block.) https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated-greens/a-36024911 https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated-...
- pydry 2y ago
  >Sergei Tretyakov made such claims. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Tretyakov_(intelligen... I didn't see anything in that in that wikipedia article about it. Besides, the claims of defectors are frequently exaggerated and fall apart. They have a strong tendency to try to say what they think their audience want to hear. >Stasi and green activist contacts are also documented. (Most funding came from fossile fuel orgs/persons, not eastern block.) https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated- https://www.dw.com/en/study-confirms-that-stasi-infiltrated-... This article is 0% about the conspiracy theory and 100% about how the stasi tried to infiltrate a political party - which is, yes, quite plausible. As I said, it's quite the conspiracy theory.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The Stasi infiltrated and tried to influence every organization they could get half a toehold in, in both the BRD/DDR. That doesn't mean they favored (or otherwise sought to promote) all of the aims and goals of the organizations. Or even any of their aims, necessary. Their primary goal in doing so was, first and foremost, that of their very motto: To know everything
LorenPechtel 2y ago
Doesn't need to be a big conspiracy. Find groups that are saying what you want said, help them along. Simple test. Look for issues which aren't really green but which benefit Moscow (and these days, Beijing.) Where do the "green" groups stand? I haven't been paying attention for quite a while because I spotted too many such things long ago and figured Moscow was pulling the strings.

aguaviva 2y ago

Some of it was Kremlin propaganda. Care to cite some examples? You know, the factual kind?

lainga 2y ago
Vladimir Bukovsky charged the Western disarmament movement (in particular the CND) with taking Soviet funding in the 1980s. YMMV up to your credence in him. https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00153R000300020014-2.pdf https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85T00153R0003000...
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The concern here was nuclear power, not arms.
  - lainga 2y ago
    "Our external strategic objectives, as decided by delegates at our annual conference, are: ... 4) The closure of the Nuclear Power Industry." Nuclear power is not, as a photograph of a banner on the CND's website tells me, the answer to climate chaos. https://cnduk.org/about/aims-and-objectives/ https://cnduk.org/about/aims-and-objectives/
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Noted, but to the extent the Soviets may have aided the CND -- their interest seems to have been in its pro-disarmament, rather than its anti-nuclear industry stance. If we go by the article you provided (and I am skimming it properly) - it doesn't mention nuclear power at all.
- wewxjfq 2y ago
  The nuclear disarmament movement achieved nothing and just because the Soviets supported something and maybe groomed some members doesn't mean they were pulling the strings. Having read about the KGB in London makes it seem like it was a pretty amateurish organization that never recovered from Operation FOOT. There are allegations that a leader of the Labour Party was a KGB agent, and still no one would insinuate that the Labour Party was a front of the KGB.

ethbr1 2y ago

The Soviets were pretty big on "nuclear all the things", given their expertise in it. (Chernobyl being more of an economic and operational/communication fuckup) And also, it was a better solution to their particular set of challenges: powering remote installations far from the nearest urban center (and powerplant). Anti-nuclear sentiment in Europe seems to have hardened as a consequence of (a) Chernobyl, (b) Germany realizing they'd be on the front lines in any war, & (c) various other nuclear incidents (US and UK).

philwelch 2y ago
There’s nothing inconsistent about the Soviets favoring nuclear energy for their own country while promoting anti-nuclear propaganda in the West.
- Arrath 2y ago
  In fact its self serving, in that reducing your own reliance on oil frees up more of your production for sale. Lets not forget that the latter Soviet Union was in large part propped up by the proceeds from its oil sales.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  That feels like disempowering Western European environmental movements excessively. They weren't Soviet puppets: they formed their own positions and advocated for them. (Another reason I missed above: the conflation of nuclear power with nuclear weapons)
  - philwelch 2y ago
    I would say that "useful idiots" is a better term than "puppets".
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      It's a shortcut to an argument to remove agency and substitute in a foreign hand, but it rarely captures the reality of a situation. There's usually far too much squabbling inside a given volunteer group for any external pressure to be able to redirect their will.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

> Some of it was Kremlin propaganda. Last month a bus caught fire in some random village in Czech Republic and apparently that was Putin’s fault too. This is getting to the point where I have to check if he is hiding in the closet before I leave the house Meanwhile we have dozens of official think tanks influencing our politics and their sources of funding are not disclosed. Could be oil companies, could be China, could be the devil himself!