4 ms·

I quite like reading old stuff though as you go really far back what you read is likely written by/edited for/dedicated to some slave-owning warlord of one kind

I quite like reading old stuff though as you go really far back what you read is likely written by/edited for/dedicated to some slave-owning warlord of one kind of another, so maybe that explains something about the 18th century that they looked to these for wisdom. Why was slave-society artistocrat Plato so skeptical of democracy? What did the slaves think about this?

Bluestein 2y ago
> What did the slaves think about this? Sadly, having no "voice" comes with being disenfranchised.-
- nine_k 2y ago
  Why, we can still hear some of their voices. Of the names you readily know, Aesop, Epictetus, Diogenes, and Plato himself were slaves at some periods of their lives. They all got freed though, AFAICT. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_slaves_and_freedmen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_slave...
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    > Plato himself were slaves His life would make for a really interesting (to say the least) biopic ...
nine_k 2y ago
While the democratic period is the height of Greek cultural achievements, democracy is not easy. If the state is ruled by the people, people should care to do the ruling, and have to be competent. It's a job; it takes time and effort. To do such a job, a person needs to understand things related to it, keep their eye on it, and has to know people around well enough to vote for / against them at elections. This works best with local issues and small communities that interact daily. The poster child of democracy, Switzerland, which holds national referenda multiple times a year, is about the size of Maryland, with a population about the size of NYC (not the greater New York city area). And it has 3 major languages (4 official), 26 cantons with local laws that are sometimes materially different, and very strict immigration and integration rules. In other words, democracy is hard to scale. What passes for democracy in larger Western countries is representative democracy, when citizens don't get involved in the state affairs as much, but select and hire other people to do that, sort of like shareholders elect a board and a CEO for the company they collectively own. It's way better than despotic monarchy, of course, but introduces an obvious agency problem. It also introduces the problem of showing off instead of competence, because the voters have rather vague idea about most candidates, having never met them in real life, interacted in business, etc. Look at the US presidential elections, they are a colossal and sad show of just that, every 4 years. The miracle is that this system still works acceptably well 2.5 centuries after it was instituted. It's already longer than the Athenian democracy.
InDubioProRubio 2y ago
The greek antic democracy was very different compared to modern democracy. Alot of our assumptions are actually projections, they basically ran a "randomized" aristocrats government, with rights and urn votes.
dinkumthinkum 2y ago
This seems to be doing something like what the article is talking about with such a heavy emphasis on “slave-owning”. I’ve never seen Plato referred to as a “slave-society aristocrat”. The left is a very sad thing now, I guess.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  You probably don't hear the founding fathers or various kings called that much either.
tetromino_ 2y ago
> slave-society artistocrat Plato It's important to note that while Plato was born into an aristocratic and undoubtedly slave-owning family, he also spent several years enslaved in Sicily.

Bluestein 2y ago

> What did the slaves think about this? Sadly, having no "voice" comes with being disenfranchised.-

nine_k 2y ago
Why, we can still hear some of their voices. Of the names you readily know, Aesop, Epictetus, Diogenes, and Plato himself were slaves at some periods of their lives. They all got freed though, AFAICT. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_slaves_and_freedmen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_slave...
- Bluestein 2y ago
  > Plato himself were slaves His life would make for a really interesting (to say the least) biopic ...

nine_k 2y ago

While the democratic period is the height of Greek cultural achievements, democracy is not easy. If the state is ruled by the people, people should care to do the ruling, and have to be competent. It's a job; it takes time and effort. To do such a job, a person needs to understand things related to it, keep their eye on it, and has to know people around well enough to vote for / against them at elections. This works best with local issues and small communities that interact daily. The poster child of democracy, Switzerland, which holds national referenda multiple times a year, is about the size of Maryland, with a population about the size of NYC (not the greater New York city area). And it has 3 major languages (4 official), 26 cantons with local laws that are sometimes materially different, and very strict immigration and integration rules. In other words, democracy is hard to scale. What passes for democracy in larger Western countries is representative democracy, when citizens don't get involved in the state affairs as much, but select and hire other people to do that, sort of like shareholders elect a board and a CEO for the company they collectively own. It's way better than despotic monarchy, of course, but introduces an obvious agency problem. It also introduces the problem of showing off instead of competence, because the voters have rather vague idea about most candidates, having never met them in real life, interacted in business, etc. Look at the US presidential elections, they are a colossal and sad show of just that, every 4 years. The miracle is that this system still works acceptably well 2.5 centuries after it was instituted. It's already longer than the Athenian democracy.

InDubioProRubio 2y ago

The greek antic democracy was very different compared to modern democracy. Alot of our assumptions are actually projections, they basically ran a "randomized" aristocrats government, with rights and urn votes.

dinkumthinkum 2y ago

This seems to be doing something like what the article is talking about with such a heavy emphasis on “slave-owning”. I’ve never seen Plato referred to as a “slave-society aristocrat”. The left is a very sad thing now, I guess.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago
You probably don't hear the founding fathers or various kings called that much either.

tetromino_ 2y ago

> slave-society artistocrat Plato It's important to note that while Plato was born into an aristocratic and undoubtedly slave-owning family, he also spent several years enslaved in Sicily.