4 ms·

The shocking answer to this moderation question is not what most people want i.e free speech.

by Timber-6539 2y ago

jncfhnb 2y ago
People absolutely don’t of want maximal free speech. Moderation is a blessing
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Yeah. There's a reason I'm on HN, and not on 4chan. (But 4chan is there, if that's what you want...)
  - beart 2y ago
    Even 4chan has moderation
chgs 2y ago
Most people don’t want free speech, and no country has free speech anyway. The question is what limits are made.
- tyre 2y ago
  The United States has free speech by all but the most extreme definitions. The 1st Amendment is well-tested and supported by the courts. Sometimes, like in Citizens United, to an extremely flexible definition of speech (political campaign donations by corporations.)
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    The right to speak, but not the right to be heard. That costs money. Speak in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and you can be placed in a "free speech zone" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone Let others say the wrong thing on your platform, be it advocating against a narrative or revealing evidence of war crimes, and you can be tortured.
    - hiatus 2y ago
      > Let others say the wrong thing on your platform, be it advocating against a narrative or revealing evidence of war crimes, and you can be tortured. Do you have any examples of this happening?
      - mandmandam 2y ago
        The most high profile examples are Assange [0] and Chelsea Manning [1]. Daniel Hale. [2] John Kiriakou*. [3] Sami al-Hajj [4]. Snowden chose exile over torture, and so has been separated from his family for over a decade. Many people were tortured that didn't even work as journalists; just victims of bad metadata or the wrong name. Many countries and organizations even consider so-called "standard practice" in American jails to constitute torture. Solitary confinement, sometimes for years. Refusal of basic medical care, nutrition, sanitation. Physical abuse from guards. Unmarked graves behind the jail [5]. Nowadays even environmental lawyers can get put in jail for the crime of winning judgments against fossil fuel companies (Donziger [6]). * - Wasn't physically tortured, but he did reveal torture and was heavily retaliated against for his trouble. ... 0 - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67362031444-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... 1 - https://theintercept.com/2020/01/02/chelsea-manning-torture-prison-united-nations/ https://theintercept.com/2020/01/02/chelsea-manning-torture-... 2 - https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-dd3111dc6e49c373dea806428edd4321 https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-dd3111dc6... 3 - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/us/former-cia-officer-is-the-first-to-face-prison-for-a-classified-leak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/us/former-cia-officer-is-... 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_al-Hajj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_al-Hajj 5 - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-after-hundreds-of-bodies-found-buried-behind-mississippi-jail https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-afte... 6 - https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-lets-chevron-foe-donzigers-contempt-conviction-stand-2023-03-27/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-lets-chevron-...
        hiatus 2y ago
        You said "Let others say the wrong thing on your platform, be it advocating against a narrative or revealing evidence of war crimes, and you can be tortured." The "you" refers to the owner of the platform. Which platform owners got tortured for things others said on their platform?
- Timber-6539 2y ago
  Most people also don't want their opinions to be silenced or used against them either. As for limits, I think by now we have collected enough data from social media use to know what kinds of posts border on outright immoral and are a negative to society. Some of these have been captured and prohibited by law. It wouldn't be that hard to use the existing laws and norms as a test bed. But again some people don't want free speech because they are afraid their feelings may be hurt in an exchange. Mostly boils down to that.
- elzbardico 2y ago
  Lots of countries, including the US had plenty of free speech. There was a kind of freedom golden age from the 70s until the late 90s, and then, 9/11, Patriot Act. It has been all downhill since then.
krapp 2y ago
Moderation is an expression of free speech. Coerced speech is not free speech.
- Timber-6539 2y ago
  Moderation exists as a form of farce to free speech.
  - krapp 2y ago
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ free speech is free speech even when you don't like the way it's used. Your right to say what you want doesn't supersede my right not to grant you a platform or even give you the time of day. Even Ben Franklin "moderated" the content of his newspaper. He didn't feel that free speech obligated him to print anything he was given. So this isn't a radical new concept. Freedom of speech and freedom from speech are two sides of the same coin, just as freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. Moderation isn't a violation of free speech, nor is it a farce. It's free speech being exercised as it was intended.
    - Timber-6539 2y ago
      You are conflating editorial rights with some form of free speech. Free speech doesn't require a platform to work nor any intermediary. It is a boundless idea.
      - krapp 2y ago
        "Editorial rights" are free speech, they're one and the same. Nowhere in my comment did I claim free speech requires a platform or an intermediary, they happen to be relevant in the context of the discussion we're having, just as television would be relevant to a discussion of free speech in broadcasting. Free speech doesn't require telecommunications infrastructure, yet it still applies, and broadcasters (even of public access stations) have the right to refuse to air content they don't want to. You're the one putting limits on free speech despite also calling it a boundless idea.
actionfromafar 2y ago
How much algorithmic push to which free speech?

The shocking answer to this moderation question is not what most people want i.e free speech.

jncfhnb 2y ago

People absolutely don’t of want maximal free speech. Moderation is a blessing

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
Yeah. There's a reason I'm on HN, and not on 4chan. (But 4chan is there, if that's what you want...)
- beart 2y ago
  Even 4chan has moderation

chgs 2y ago

Most people don’t want free speech, and no country has free speech anyway. The question is what limits are made.

tyre 2y ago
The United States has free speech by all but the most extreme definitions. The 1st Amendment is well-tested and supported by the courts. Sometimes, like in Citizens United, to an extremely flexible definition of speech (political campaign donations by corporations.)
- mandmandam 2y ago
  The right to speak, but not the right to be heard. That costs money. Speak in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and you can be placed in a "free speech zone" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone Let others say the wrong thing on your platform, be it advocating against a narrative or revealing evidence of war crimes, and you can be tortured.
  - hiatus 2y ago
    > Let others say the wrong thing on your platform, be it advocating against a narrative or revealing evidence of war crimes, and you can be tortured. Do you have any examples of this happening?
    - mandmandam 2y ago
      The most high profile examples are Assange [0] and Chelsea Manning [1]. Daniel Hale. [2] John Kiriakou*. [3] Sami al-Hajj [4]. Snowden chose exile over torture, and so has been separated from his family for over a decade. Many people were tortured that didn't even work as journalists; just victims of bad metadata or the wrong name. Many countries and organizations even consider so-called "standard practice" in American jails to constitute torture. Solitary confinement, sometimes for years. Refusal of basic medical care, nutrition, sanitation. Physical abuse from guards. Unmarked graves behind the jail [5]. Nowadays even environmental lawyers can get put in jail for the crime of winning judgments against fossil fuel companies (Donziger [6]). * - Wasn't physically tortured, but he did reveal torture and was heavily retaliated against for his trouble. ... 0 - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67362031444-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... 1 - https://theintercept.com/2020/01/02/chelsea-manning-torture-prison-united-nations/ https://theintercept.com/2020/01/02/chelsea-manning-torture-... 2 - https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-dd3111dc6e49c373dea806428edd4321 https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-dd3111dc6... 3 - https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/us/former-cia-officer-is-the-first-to-face-prison-for-a-classified-leak.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/us/former-cia-officer-is-... 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_al-Hajj https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_al-Hajj 5 - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-after-hundreds-of-bodies-found-buried-behind-mississippi-jail https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/families-in-disbelief-afte... 6 - https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-lets-chevron-foe-donzigers-contempt-conviction-stand-2023-03-27/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-supreme-court-lets-chevron-...
      - hiatus 2y ago
        You said "Let others say the wrong thing on your platform, be it advocating against a narrative or revealing evidence of war crimes, and you can be tortured." The "you" refers to the owner of the platform. Which platform owners got tortured for things others said on their platform?
Timber-6539 2y ago
Most people also don't want their opinions to be silenced or used against them either. As for limits, I think by now we have collected enough data from social media use to know what kinds of posts border on outright immoral and are a negative to society. Some of these have been captured and prohibited by law. It wouldn't be that hard to use the existing laws and norms as a test bed. But again some people don't want free speech because they are afraid their feelings may be hurt in an exchange. Mostly boils down to that.
elzbardico 2y ago
Lots of countries, including the US had plenty of free speech. There was a kind of freedom golden age from the 70s until the late 90s, and then, 9/11, Patriot Act. It has been all downhill since then.

krapp 2y ago

Moderation is an expression of free speech. Coerced speech is not free speech.

Timber-6539 2y ago
Moderation exists as a form of farce to free speech.
- krapp 2y ago
  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ free speech is free speech even when you don't like the way it's used. Your right to say what you want doesn't supersede my right not to grant you a platform or even give you the time of day. Even Ben Franklin "moderated" the content of his newspaper. He didn't feel that free speech obligated him to print anything he was given. So this isn't a radical new concept. Freedom of speech and freedom from speech are two sides of the same coin, just as freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. Moderation isn't a violation of free speech, nor is it a farce. It's free speech being exercised as it was intended.
  - Timber-6539 2y ago
    You are conflating editorial rights with some form of free speech. Free speech doesn't require a platform to work nor any intermediary. It is a boundless idea.
    - krapp 2y ago
      "Editorial rights" are free speech, they're one and the same. Nowhere in my comment did I claim free speech requires a platform or an intermediary, they happen to be relevant in the context of the discussion we're having, just as television would be relevant to a discussion of free speech in broadcasting. Free speech doesn't require telecommunications infrastructure, yet it still applies, and broadcasters (even of public access stations) have the right to refuse to air content they don't want to. You're the one putting limits on free speech despite also calling it a boundless idea.

actionfromafar 2y ago

How much algorithmic push to which free speech?