7 ms·

Why FreeBSD? How did they decide that it's worth supporting? What return is expected? I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD these days apart of being a Fre

by oytis 2y ago

Why FreeBSD? How did they decide that it's worth supporting? What return is expected? I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD these days apart of being a FreeBSD enthusiast.

cyberpunk 2y ago
pfsense is fairly widely deployed in a lot of 'secure' infrastructure.
BSDobelix 2y ago
>I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD That's funny because i don't even know a reason to use Linux these days. And since there is the Linux-Foundation who invests whopping 5% of their money into the Linux Kernel, an opensource alternative is always good to have. Edit: Correction it's not 5% but less then 3%
- christophilus 2y ago
  I’m a big fan of the BSDs, but if you’re talking about the desktop, Proton and Steam, WiFi support, and (for me) Niri. You can get Niri working, probably, with some effort, but it comes out of the box on Fedora and Arch. The case of Niri is representative, in my limited experience, of the general case. The dev tooling I use always supports Linux as a 1st class citizen, but rarely supports the BSDs.
  - BSDobelix 2y ago
    Well there is proton and steam on FreeBSD and i can even play Elden Ring and X4 for 2 minutes.....then my machine resets because there is no way to adjust the AMD-GPU fans, so i made a bhyve Win11-VM with passthrough to the discrete GPU and Bluetooth (PS4 controller), and now i can play everything, even my beloved Gold-Box Games with the GBC. >WiFi support Yeah that's really a problem, but i just use my Laptop for work so ~6 MB/s is good enough for me, otherwise i would use FreeBSDWifibox it's a hack but hey we use Unixes right? ;) >Niri is representative See what Niri is for you, ZFS is for me, i could say that the ZFS-module is representative (on mainstream distros) for Linux and we are both right, FreeBSD and Linux are both not perfect. BTW Niri is already in ports since ~9 month: https://www.freshports.org/x11-wm/niri https://www.freshports.org/x11-wm/niri >dev tooling I use always supports Linux as a 1st class citizen, but rarely supports the BSDs. I don't know what "1st class citizen" means, if it works it works, i often use dev-tools where Mac and Windows seam to be the "1st class citizen" but if they work they work. So yes, there are problems like the Overheating AMD-GPU and Wifi but apart from that i am super happy with FreeBSD, and most important everyone is happy with the OS/Distro choice one made.
    - Gud 2y ago
      For WiFi you should really try bhyve with pass through to an OpenBSD guest. I get wifi speeds comparable to what I got with Alpine(wifibox), but a much nicer environment. Not particularly difficult to setup or maintain.
- kombine 2y ago
  > That's funny because i don't even know a reason to use Linux these days. Can I run apps like Slack or Spotify on BSD? Will it have WiFi and Bluetooth drivers for my laptop? Not even talking about games.
  - BSDobelix 2y ago
    Slack and Spotify if needed in a Linux Jail, yes to Games (Proton or Linuxlator or native), maybe to Wifi and BT. Read my comment two steps down the line (bhyve-vm etc).
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      > Slack and Spotify if needed in a Linux Jail, yes Ha, just after you last said: > That's funny because i don't even know a reason to use Linux these days. Well, there's one reason to use Linux, lol - to run all the apps on BSD that BSD doesn't support.
      - BSDobelix 2y ago
        >Ha, just after you last said I don't use a Slack Client but the Web one, and i don't use Spotify. >Well, there's one reason to use Linux, lol True, you have a point to compare two proprietary Blobs, oh BTW is Adobe and nearly ever AAA-Game supporting Linux or do you need Wine/Proton (that Windows not emulator) thing? And to be clear a LinuxJail is actually NOT using the Linux Kernel but the GNU-Userland ;) so no Linux present, Wine is the ~same as a LinuxJail from your viewpoint...but without isolation ;) Linux (Wine): Windows -> Linux SystemCall-translator FreeBSD (Linxulator): Linux -> FreeBSD SystemCall-translator With more or less your Words: >Well, there's one reason to use Windows (Wine), lol - to run all the apps on Linux that Linux doesn't support. To be short, double lol
        ruthmarx 2y ago
        > I don't use a Slack Client but the Web one, and i don't use Spotify. The comment you were replying to was talking in general terms so I thought you were as well. > And to be clear a LinuxJail is actually NOT using the Linux Kernel but the GNU-Userland Huh, that means even less stuff will run. I thought it was more than just an emulation layer. > To be short, double lol Not sure what this means. Long and short of it is though the original commenter was right IMO. The BSDs are generally the OS of hobbyists and sometimes contrarians, and it doesn't make sense these days when there are better options in most situations. If often makes as much sense as running Hurd or P9.
skirge 2y ago
it boost rate of R&D and innovation in EU so statistics look better. It reminds me a story told by my professor - years ago (70s) he implemented accounting system for some company and later noticed a serious bug which made it unusable. It wasn't a problem because system was never deployed - it was needed so the (state owned, because it was Poland) company could report deployment of innovation.
- socksy 2y ago
  Very cynical, but wrong in this case. The point of the sovereign tech fund[0] is to throw some (relatively small in the scheme of things) money at open source infrastructure that everyone relies on, no matter if that infrastructure itself is German, or even European. Basically, as their graphics on their homepage allude to, aiming to improve https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/ IMO this is exactly the common-sense investments that every country should be making in their own self interest, and is one of the things that Germany is actually doing right. [0]: https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/mission https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/mission
stragies 2y ago
Some (former) apple users in my small sphere that now also run FreeBSD mentioned feeling happy about helping to ensure there will always be well-tested BSD/MIT licensed code Apple then can incorporate/use.
- kombine 2y ago
  Wait, they do it for Apple Corp??
talideon 2y ago
Obviously the likes of Juniper, NetApp, Sony, Netflix, &c., know something you don't. Also, FreeBSD is fairly heavily used in Germany.
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  > Obviously the likes of Juniper, NetApp, Sony, Netflix, &c., know something you don't. Or there was no advantage and it was just the preference of the person designing the architecture.
  - DaSHacka 2y ago
    I'm sure all those companies decided to base their flagship products on a particular (implied inferior) system all because of one dude's preference
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      It's not that far fetched. Someone is going to be the lead architect. If BSD works as well as Linux but the guy in charge has a preference for BSD, that's enough for them to go BSD.
    - BSDobelix 2y ago
      Junior Developers: There's this guy in the cellar, his beard is 1 metre long, he hates the Sun but he likes FreeBSD. Management: He must be right if he has such a long beard, let's take FreeBSD Marketing: At least he is not eating from he's feet or wants to retroactively abort someone, let's go for it.
  - heraldgeezer 2y ago
    I am sure companies design their entire OS based on that...
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  Aren't NetApp and Juniper slowly switching to Linux too?
lnxg33k1 2y ago
The license could be one
seszett 2y ago
> I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD these days apart of being a FreeBSD enthusiast. In addition to the technical reasons other people have given, just running on a slightly "exotic" platform is often sufficient to avoid most of the common exploits. Not because there are inherently less vulnerabilities on your platform, but because it's less likely to be an explicit target.
IWeldMelons 2y ago
FreeBSD has good ZFS support, and nice package update cycle (quarterly + ongoing security updates), halfway between rolling release and point release, coppled with the stable "core" part of the system. Hardware support is shitty, even worse than OpenBSD, and it tells a lot. 12th-gen Intel integrated video driver is scheduled to appear only in September 2024.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  hardware support being bad is a feature. remember BSDs are chosen by companies to whom linux is license-toxic. if they distribute hardware, like apple, gpl is poison. this is a way to use your taxes to get free (as in beer, primarily) software they can ship on their products. less other companies can easily use that code the better.
  - IWeldMelons 2y ago
    This is BS, as FreeBSD use linux kernel modules for half of its hardware and, OpenBSD with a lot smaller team has better support for various devices.
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      It's not BS. They port a lot of modules but based on the needs of the developers, and often out of date.
    - vedranm 2y ago
      Half is definitely an exaggeration for LinuxKPI modules that cover WiFi and GPU drivers. Still, most of radeon/amdgpu DRM driver is MIT-licensed and doesn't require abiding by the GPL (not sure about other drivers as I don't use them, but I assume licenses vary).

by oytis 2y ago

Why FreeBSD? How did they decide that it's worth supporting? What return is expected? I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD these days apart of being a FreeBSD enthusiast.

cyberpunk 2y ago

pfsense is fairly widely deployed in a lot of 'secure' infrastructure.

BSDobelix 2y ago

>I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD That's funny because i don't even know a reason to use Linux these days. And since there is the Linux-Foundation who invests whopping 5% of their money into the Linux Kernel, an opensource alternative is always good to have. Edit: Correction it's not 5% but less then 3%

christophilus 2y ago
I’m a big fan of the BSDs, but if you’re talking about the desktop, Proton and Steam, WiFi support, and (for me) Niri. You can get Niri working, probably, with some effort, but it comes out of the box on Fedora and Arch. The case of Niri is representative, in my limited experience, of the general case. The dev tooling I use always supports Linux as a 1st class citizen, but rarely supports the BSDs.
- BSDobelix 2y ago
  Well there is proton and steam on FreeBSD and i can even play Elden Ring and X4 for 2 minutes.....then my machine resets because there is no way to adjust the AMD-GPU fans, so i made a bhyve Win11-VM with passthrough to the discrete GPU and Bluetooth (PS4 controller), and now i can play everything, even my beloved Gold-Box Games with the GBC. >WiFi support Yeah that's really a problem, but i just use my Laptop for work so ~6 MB/s is good enough for me, otherwise i would use FreeBSDWifibox it's a hack but hey we use Unixes right? ;) >Niri is representative See what Niri is for you, ZFS is for me, i could say that the ZFS-module is representative (on mainstream distros) for Linux and we are both right, FreeBSD and Linux are both not perfect. BTW Niri is already in ports since ~9 month: https://www.freshports.org/x11-wm/niri https://www.freshports.org/x11-wm/niri >dev tooling I use always supports Linux as a 1st class citizen, but rarely supports the BSDs. I don't know what "1st class citizen" means, if it works it works, i often use dev-tools where Mac and Windows seam to be the "1st class citizen" but if they work they work. So yes, there are problems like the Overheating AMD-GPU and Wifi but apart from that i am super happy with FreeBSD, and most important everyone is happy with the OS/Distro choice one made.
  - Gud 2y ago
    For WiFi you should really try bhyve with pass through to an OpenBSD guest. I get wifi speeds comparable to what I got with Alpine(wifibox), but a much nicer environment. Not particularly difficult to setup or maintain.
kombine 2y ago
> That's funny because i don't even know a reason to use Linux these days. Can I run apps like Slack or Spotify on BSD? Will it have WiFi and Bluetooth drivers for my laptop? Not even talking about games.
- BSDobelix 2y ago
  Slack and Spotify if needed in a Linux Jail, yes to Games (Proton or Linuxlator or native), maybe to Wifi and BT. Read my comment two steps down the line (bhyve-vm etc).
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    > Slack and Spotify if needed in a Linux Jail, yes Ha, just after you last said: > That's funny because i don't even know a reason to use Linux these days. Well, there's one reason to use Linux, lol - to run all the apps on BSD that BSD doesn't support.
    - BSDobelix 2y ago
      >Ha, just after you last said I don't use a Slack Client but the Web one, and i don't use Spotify. >Well, there's one reason to use Linux, lol True, you have a point to compare two proprietary Blobs, oh BTW is Adobe and nearly ever AAA-Game supporting Linux or do you need Wine/Proton (that Windows not emulator) thing? And to be clear a LinuxJail is actually NOT using the Linux Kernel but the GNU-Userland ;) so no Linux present, Wine is the ~same as a LinuxJail from your viewpoint...but without isolation ;) Linux (Wine): Windows -> Linux SystemCall-translator FreeBSD (Linxulator): Linux -> FreeBSD SystemCall-translator With more or less your Words: >Well, there's one reason to use Windows (Wine), lol - to run all the apps on Linux that Linux doesn't support. To be short, double lol
      - ruthmarx 2y ago
        > I don't use a Slack Client but the Web one, and i don't use Spotify. The comment you were replying to was talking in general terms so I thought you were as well. > And to be clear a LinuxJail is actually NOT using the Linux Kernel but the GNU-Userland Huh, that means even less stuff will run. I thought it was more than just an emulation layer. > To be short, double lol Not sure what this means. Long and short of it is though the original commenter was right IMO. The BSDs are generally the OS of hobbyists and sometimes contrarians, and it doesn't make sense these days when there are better options in most situations. If often makes as much sense as running Hurd or P9.

skirge 2y ago

it boost rate of R&D and innovation in EU so statistics look better. It reminds me a story told by my professor - years ago (70s) he implemented accounting system for some company and later noticed a serious bug which made it unusable. It wasn't a problem because system was never deployed - it was needed so the (state owned, because it was Poland) company could report deployment of innovation.

socksy 2y ago
Very cynical, but wrong in this case. The point of the sovereign tech fund[0] is to throw some (relatively small in the scheme of things) money at open source infrastructure that everyone relies on, no matter if that infrastructure itself is German, or even European. Basically, as their graphics on their homepage allude to, aiming to improve https://xkcd.com/2347/ https://xkcd.com/2347/ IMO this is exactly the common-sense investments that every country should be making in their own self interest, and is one of the things that Germany is actually doing right. [0]: https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/mission https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/mission

stragies 2y ago

Some (former) apple users in my small sphere that now also run FreeBSD mentioned feeling happy about helping to ensure there will always be well-tested BSD/MIT licensed code Apple then can incorporate/use.

kombine 2y ago
Wait, they do it for Apple Corp??

talideon 2y ago

Obviously the likes of Juniper, NetApp, Sony, Netflix, &c., know something you don't. Also, FreeBSD is fairly heavily used in Germany.

ruthmarx 2y ago
> Obviously the likes of Juniper, NetApp, Sony, Netflix, &c., know something you don't. Or there was no advantage and it was just the preference of the person designing the architecture.
- DaSHacka 2y ago
  I'm sure all those companies decided to base their flagship products on a particular (implied inferior) system all because of one dude's preference
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    It's not that far fetched. Someone is going to be the lead architect. If BSD works as well as Linux but the guy in charge has a preference for BSD, that's enough for them to go BSD.
  - BSDobelix 2y ago
    Junior Developers: There's this guy in the cellar, his beard is 1 metre long, he hates the Sun but he likes FreeBSD. Management: He must be right if he has such a long beard, let's take FreeBSD Marketing: At least he is not eating from he's feet or wants to retroactively abort someone, let's go for it.
- heraldgeezer 2y ago
  I am sure companies design their entire OS based on that...
mardifoufs 2y ago
Aren't NetApp and Juniper slowly switching to Linux too?

lnxg33k1 2y ago

The license could be one

seszett 2y ago

> I don't even know a reason to use FreeBSD these days apart of being a FreeBSD enthusiast. In addition to the technical reasons other people have given, just running on a slightly "exotic" platform is often sufficient to avoid most of the common exploits. Not because there are inherently less vulnerabilities on your platform, but because it's less likely to be an explicit target.

IWeldMelons 2y ago

FreeBSD has good ZFS support, and nice package update cycle (quarterly + ongoing security updates), halfway between rolling release and point release, coppled with the stable "core" part of the system. Hardware support is shitty, even worse than OpenBSD, and it tells a lot. 12th-gen Intel integrated video driver is scheduled to appear only in September 2024.

1oooqooq 2y ago
hardware support being bad is a feature. remember BSDs are chosen by companies to whom linux is license-toxic. if they distribute hardware, like apple, gpl is poison. this is a way to use your taxes to get free (as in beer, primarily) software they can ship on their products. less other companies can easily use that code the better.
- IWeldMelons 2y ago
  This is BS, as FreeBSD use linux kernel modules for half of its hardware and, OpenBSD with a lot smaller team has better support for various devices.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    It's not BS. They port a lot of modules but based on the needs of the developers, and often out of date.
  - vedranm 2y ago
    Half is definitely an exaggeration for LinuxKPI modules that cover WiFi and GPU drivers. Still, most of radeon/amdgpu DRM driver is MIT-licensed and doesn't require abiding by the GPL (not sure about other drivers as I don't use them, but I assume licenses vary).