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A large part of the issue, as I see it, is that the university format is just a very poor way for people to learn information. If people want to learn a tech sk
by bnralt 2y ago
A large part of the issue, as I see it, is that the university format is just a very poor way for people to learn information. If people want to learn a tech skill and don't care about credentials, they invariably find a lot of other ways far superior to university courses. The closest I've seen to university style courses that people actually find useful is Udemy. Very few people seem to get much use from EdX or Coursera classes, far fewer still think it's a good idea to take classes at their local university.
Same with Plato. You can read Plato on your own, you can listen to many more hours of free lectures on Plato, usually from better quality speakers, than you'd ever get at a university, you can join groups of people who want to discuss Plato's philosophy. These people will actually be individuals interested in the topic, not bored university classmates who spend half the time talking about other things because of their disinterest. This is all for free.
Even discounting the cost, university education trails far behind other forms of learning. Once the cost is factored in, the only appeal ends up being the credentials and the four year summer camp environment.
That's why when I see MOOCs brought up these days in the wild, it's usually from people who are taking them for credentials. Once credentials are taken away, MOOCs and universities just don't have a ton to offer for a motivated learner. It would be good if credentials and education were decoupled (for instance, like with the CFA), but there doesn't appear to be much of a push for that.
- em-bee 2y agodecoupling would really make a difference. i should be able to acquire knowledge however i want or am able to, and then pass a standardized process to get the accreditation. the problem with standardized tests however is that they lead to more schools just teaching for the test and not actually helping the students learn. it's tricky. depending on the subject or field. though i suppose papers and dissertations can be judged on their own merits. but other tests are trickier to do in a way that they can't just be passed by memorizing test knowledge.
- bnralt 2y agoHonestly, though, removing standardized testing usually just obfuscates the problem. There are many ways to game the system. The ubiquitous college cramming is usually about temporarily learning for the test the night before a big exam. It's better to work on improving transparent standards for credentials than to have tens of thousands of different standards that no one pays attention to and hoping that they're adequate, despite having no clue if that's actually the case.
- hilux 2y agoAs a related aside, "competency-based education" is a thing, slightly more popular in Europe than in the US. I don't want to destroy all universities (like Trump or DeSantis do). But it IS true that the higher-education system needs a big revamp, and that the necessary change is unlikely to come from within, because the people (tenured faculty) who currently hold all the power have a strong interest in not rocking the boat.
- ericjmorey 2y agoMost software programmers say that certifications have little to no value, so the decoupling doesn't seem to be working.
- hilux 2y agoI was once excited about Udemy. I bought a lot of courses, most of which I never started. But the few times I started a Udemy course, every single one was terrible, once I got past the first 20% or so. And contrary to their advertising, they did not allow me to return the course, because I had "completed too much" or something. IIRC I was around the 30-35% mark. Totally different from Coursera, which can be hit and miss, but best stuff is very good. Have you had a different experience? Which courses did you complete that were good? TLDR: Udemy - cheap, and you get what you pay for.
- StefanBatory 2y agoThere are some people there who are good; but most of the courses there are quite bad. Which ones you tried, if I may ask? I'm curious. I remember being both Neil Cummings and Max Schwarzmueller courses to be good, but I did them some time ago and when I was never to web development.
- hilux 2y agoYou mean - on Coursera? There was a Python course offered by three profs at Rice University that was A+. Similar for Dan Ariely's Behavioral Economics class - of course, maybe it was all lies (now it turns out), but entertaining nevertheless. Andrew Ng's course is quite math-heavy (I haven't done it), but it gets rave reviews. So many Coursera tech/CS courses are offered by profs at elite universities - there's no way they could be the kind of crap that is standard on Udemy. What Coursera lacks (compared to the university experience) is personal interaction with a real professor, group projects with smart and focused classmates, and personalized feedback.
- StefanBatory 2y agoAh, sorry. I meant for Udemy - I've no real experience with Coursera.