3 ms·

Germany's ban on some type of political speech have high bars. It is not easy to shut down right wing publications. And just to be clear, the bans we have in G

by oezi 2y ago

Germany's ban on some type of political speech have high bars. It is not easy to shut down right wing publications. And just to be clear, the bans we have in Germany prohibit spreading lies about some of the worst atrocities ever committed by man. Freedom of speech is a valuable right, but not as valuable as the dignity and life of humans, 50m of which lost their life from 1933-1945.

andix 2y ago
TLDR: in Germany you aren't allowed to plan becoming Hitler 2.0 and start the 4th reich. That's basically the limitation of free speech.
mariusor 2y ago
I think the citizenship requirement of publicly acknowledging the right of existence of Israel is quite strong on the "not free" political speech, no matter one's private opinion on the matter. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-to-israel-stirs-debate/a-67673872 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-t...
- oezi 2y ago
  Well, in Germany we think that being against the right of existence of Israel isn't something that is an opinion that anyone can have. But how about the US Oath of Allegiance, would you consider it a restriction of "Free Speech" that you have to renounce all allegiance to any foreign sovereignty? Is it a restriction of free speech that you have to say something if you want to become a citizen? "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
  - megous 2y ago
    Israel state as it is doesn't have a right to exist. No state does. Neither does Germany. State is just some temporary (in the grand scheme of things) form of often violent organization some group of people form at a time to organize their affairs (and force some others into or out of, usually) for their own benefit. (For Israel, this includes defacto permanent military subjugation of millions of people, and stripping them of their rights. This makes it doubly ridiculous that this is almost the only state where you constantly hear from the supporters that it has the "right to exists" somehow.) States either do exist (if enough people are willing to fund and maintain such an organization, and/or let themselves get killed and/or kill others for it) or they don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist It's just a philosophical issue. That Germany decided preserving existence of particular current form of Israeli state is useful target for thought policing is basically just ridiculous. Calls for "destruction" of Israel as a state as it currently is (eg. change of regime from racist religious ethnostate to true democracy) are not necessarily "bad". The state I was born in doesn't exist anymore, BTW. It was replaced with a different state because people called for ending it in '89. And then again at the end of '92. Not many people are crying over it. States come and go all the time.
    - mariusor 2y ago
      With the risk of splitting the hairs even more, I think that what is commonly meant by "the right of the Israel state to exist" is that the Jewish people have a right to govern themselves as a sovereign nation in the land of Israel.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        That the Jewish people have a right to govern themselves as a sovereign nation in the land of Israel. And it's perfectly possible to question this claim (it is not ipso facto a "right") without being even in the least antisemitic, or wishing physical harm on anyone. Being as you're leaving out the fact that this "sovereign nation" was carved out of another people's land, fundamentally denying their right to self-determination. It is this usurpation and denial of the rights of the indigenous inhabitants that people question, when they express doubts about the supposedly inalienable "right" of the State of Israel to exist. (And yes - this generalizes to all countries; it's perfectly reasonable to question the "right" of any country to exist, or to exist with its currently claimed borders).
- aguaviva 2y ago
  There seems to be some misquoting of the content of the new Citizenship Test (Einbürgerungstest), possibly out of confusing with a local edict in one of the federal states (Saxony-Anhalt) last year. The new federal test does not require affirmation of any belief about the State of Israel; only "knowledge" of the basic issues of laws regarding Antisemitism in Germany, and of Jewish life and hstory in Germany in general. Here's a list of the actual questions, from a recent article in Die Welt: 1. Vor wie vielen Jahren gab es erstmals eine jüdische Gemeinde auf dem Gebiet des heutigen Deutschlands? a) vor etwa 300 Jahren b) vor etwa 700 Jahren c) vor etwa 1150 Jahren d) vor etwa 1700 Jahren* 2. Wer darf bei den rund 40 jüdischen Makkabi-Sportvereinen Mitglied werden? a) nur Deutsche b) nur Israelis c) nur religiöse Menschen d) alle Menschen\* 3. Welche Städte haben die größten jüdischen Gemeinden in Deutschland? a) Berlin und München\* b) Hamburg und Essen c) Nürnberg und Stuttgart d) Worms und Speyer 4. Wie heißt das jüdische Gebetshaus? a) Basilika b) Moschee c) Synagoge\* d) Kirche Thema Existenzrecht Israel 5. Auf welcher rechtlichen Grundlage wurde der Staat Israel gegründet? a) eine Resolution der Vereinten Nationen\* b) ein Beschluss des Zionistenkongresses c) ein Vorschlag der Bundesregierung d) ein Vorschlag der UdSSR 6. Woraus begründet sich Deutschlands besondere Verantwortung für Israel? a) aus der Mitgliedschaft in der Europäischen Union (EU) b) aus den nationalsozialistischen Verbrechen\* c) aus dem Grundgesetz der Bundesrepublik Deutschland d) aus der christlichen Tradition Thema Antisemitismus 7. Was ist ein Beispiel für antisemitisches Verhalten? a) ein jüdisches Fest besuchen b) die israelische Regierung kritisieren c) den Holocaust leugnen\* d) gegen Juden Fußball spielen 8. Woran erinnern die sogenannten Stolpersteine in Deutschland? a) an berühmte deutsche Politikerinnen und Politiker b) an die Opfer des Nationalsozialismus\* c) an Verkehrstote d) an bekannte jüdische Musiker 9. Wie kann jemand, der den Holocaust leugnet, bestraft werden? a) Kürzung sozialer Leistungen b) bis zu 100 Sozialstunden c) gar nicht, Holocaustleugnung ist erlaubt d) mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe\* 10. Welche Handlung mit Bezug auf den Staat Israel ist in Deutschland verboten? a) die Politik Israels öffentlich kritisieren b) das Aufhängen einer israelischen Flagge auf dem Privatgrundstück c) eine Diskussion über die Politik Israels d) der öffentliche Aufruf zur Vernichtung Israels\* https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article250754984/Einbuergerungstest-Israel-und-Antisemitismus-die-neuen-Fragen-fuer-Bewerber-um-den-deutschen-Pass.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article250754984/Ein...

by oezi 2y ago

andix 2y ago

TLDR: in Germany you aren't allowed to plan becoming Hitler 2.0 and start the 4th reich. That's basically the limitation of free speech.

mariusor 2y ago

I think the citizenship requirement of publicly acknowledging the right of existence of Israel is quite strong on the "not free" political speech, no matter one's private opinion on the matter. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-to-israel-stirs-debate/a-67673872 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-t...

oezi 2y ago
Well, in Germany we think that being against the right of existence of Israel isn't something that is an opinion that anyone can have. But how about the US Oath of Allegiance, would you consider it a restriction of "Free Speech" that you have to renounce all allegiance to any foreign sovereignty? Is it a restriction of free speech that you have to say something if you want to become a citizen? "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
- megous 2y ago
  Israel state as it is doesn't have a right to exist. No state does. Neither does Germany. State is just some temporary (in the grand scheme of things) form of often violent organization some group of people form at a time to organize their affairs (and force some others into or out of, usually) for their own benefit. (For Israel, this includes defacto permanent military subjugation of millions of people, and stripping them of their rights. This makes it doubly ridiculous that this is almost the only state where you constantly hear from the supporters that it has the "right to exists" somehow.) States either do exist (if enough people are willing to fund and maintain such an organization, and/or let themselves get killed and/or kill others for it) or they don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist It's just a philosophical issue. That Germany decided preserving existence of particular current form of Israeli state is useful target for thought policing is basically just ridiculous. Calls for "destruction" of Israel as a state as it currently is (eg. change of regime from racist religious ethnostate to true democracy) are not necessarily "bad". The state I was born in doesn't exist anymore, BTW. It was replaced with a different state because people called for ending it in '89. And then again at the end of '92. Not many people are crying over it. States come and go all the time.
  - mariusor 2y ago
    With the risk of splitting the hairs even more, I think that what is commonly meant by "the right of the Israel state to exist" is that the Jewish people have a right to govern themselves as a sovereign nation in the land of Israel.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      That the Jewish people have a right to govern themselves as a sovereign nation in the land of Israel. And it's perfectly possible to question this claim (it is not ipso facto a "right") without being even in the least antisemitic, or wishing physical harm on anyone. Being as you're leaving out the fact that this "sovereign nation" was carved out of another people's land, fundamentally denying their right to self-determination. It is this usurpation and denial of the rights of the indigenous inhabitants that people question, when they express doubts about the supposedly inalienable "right" of the State of Israel to exist. (And yes - this generalizes to all countries; it's perfectly reasonable to question the "right" of any country to exist, or to exist with its currently claimed borders).
aguaviva 2y ago
There seems to be some misquoting of the content of the new Citizenship Test (Einbürgerungstest), possibly out of confusing with a local edict in one of the federal states (Saxony-Anhalt) last year. The new federal test does not require affirmation of any belief about the State of Israel; only "knowledge" of the basic issues of laws regarding Antisemitism in Germany, and of Jewish life and hstory in Germany in general. Here's a list of the actual questions, from a recent article in Die Welt: 1. Vor wie vielen Jahren gab es erstmals eine jüdische Gemeinde auf dem Gebiet des heutigen Deutschlands? a) vor etwa 300 Jahren b) vor etwa 700 Jahren c) vor etwa 1150 Jahren d) vor etwa 1700 Jahren* 2. Wer darf bei den rund 40 jüdischen Makkabi-Sportvereinen Mitglied werden? a) nur Deutsche b) nur Israelis c) nur religiöse Menschen d) alle Menschen\* 3. Welche Städte haben die größten jüdischen Gemeinden in Deutschland? a) Berlin und München\* b) Hamburg und Essen c) Nürnberg und Stuttgart d) Worms und Speyer 4. Wie heißt das jüdische Gebetshaus? a) Basilika b) Moschee c) Synagoge\* d) Kirche Thema Existenzrecht Israel 5. Auf welcher rechtlichen Grundlage wurde der Staat Israel gegründet? a) eine Resolution der Vereinten Nationen\* b) ein Beschluss des Zionistenkongresses c) ein Vorschlag der Bundesregierung d) ein Vorschlag der UdSSR 6. Woraus begründet sich Deutschlands besondere Verantwortung für Israel? a) aus der Mitgliedschaft in der Europäischen Union (EU) b) aus den nationalsozialistischen Verbrechen\* c) aus dem Grundgesetz der Bundesrepublik Deutschland d) aus der christlichen Tradition Thema Antisemitismus 7. Was ist ein Beispiel für antisemitisches Verhalten? a) ein jüdisches Fest besuchen b) die israelische Regierung kritisieren c) den Holocaust leugnen\* d) gegen Juden Fußball spielen 8. Woran erinnern die sogenannten Stolpersteine in Deutschland? a) an berühmte deutsche Politikerinnen und Politiker b) an die Opfer des Nationalsozialismus\* c) an Verkehrstote d) an bekannte jüdische Musiker 9. Wie kann jemand, der den Holocaust leugnet, bestraft werden? a) Kürzung sozialer Leistungen b) bis zu 100 Sozialstunden c) gar nicht, Holocaustleugnung ist erlaubt d) mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe\* 10. Welche Handlung mit Bezug auf den Staat Israel ist in Deutschland verboten? a) die Politik Israels öffentlich kritisieren b) das Aufhängen einer israelischen Flagge auf dem Privatgrundstück c) eine Diskussion über die Politik Israels d) der öffentliche Aufruf zur Vernichtung Israels\* https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article250754984/Einbuergerungstest-Israel-und-Antisemitismus-die-neuen-Fragen-fuer-Bewerber-um-den-deutschen-Pass.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article250754984/Ein...