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This 10000000%. They treat their employees like shit. Intel lost literally their entire red team to Oracle of all places over (at least) pay. Intel has a comple

This 10000000%. They treat their employees like shit. Intel lost literally their entire red team to Oracle of all places over (at least) pay. Intel has a complete joke pay system that is like something out of the 1950s, underpays substantially and docks that already low pay based on certain qualifications like having a college degree (sorry Steve Jobs!). I have zero interest as a taxpayer in bailing out their crappy company, let it fail or succeed on its own merits like the companies all of their employees moved to because they were better at retaining staff. Modernize your staffing system to hire competitively or die.

KK7NIL 2y ago
The "companies all of their employees moved to" don't make leading edge semiconductors with US based R&D, so I don't know why you're acting like they'd be able to do what Intel does. This isn't about Intel, it's about keeping US companies competitive in leading edge semiconductor manufacturing. If we let Intel fail, we'd have an even tougher battle to get some other US company to compete.
- schmidtleonard 2y ago
  Ok, so let bankruptcy wipe out the shareholders and then let someone more responsible buy the good parts at auction. Or nationalize it. If shareholders aren't taking risk and responsibility, why the hell are we putting them in charge and letting them pay themselves massive dividends?
  - KK7NIL 2y ago
    1) No other US company is capable of using the parts for leading edge semiconductors. Case in point: GlobalFoundry had EUV machines but returned them to ASML as they weren't able to compete technically and capital wise. They would be the best to take over Intel's assets but they weren't competitive years ago, why would they be now? 2) idk where you're getting the idea that Intel is paying massive dividends when it has been one of the worst performing tech stocks for years. The SW companies juiced up on low interest rates have done far better.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      > They would be the best to take over Intel's assets but they weren't competitive years ago, why would they be now? Yeah. Channelling Michael Dell, October 6, 1997, they should shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders. Or more seriously, everything changes over time. Intel goes from good to bad, GlobalFoundry can go from bad to good.
  - mrandish 2y ago
    Excellent observation. Setting "preserving XYZ corporation" as a national priority is focusing on the wrong thing. Corporations are temporary constructs formed out of combinations of resources (human, capital, IP, etc) to organize and maximize the value of those resources. If we really care about fostering and furthering these resources, we need to free them from being held captive, under-utilized and mis-allocated inside a repeatedly failing corporation - not propping up failing corporations. If the resources in question really are both viable and valuable, releasing them will allow the free market to do what it does best - efficiently allocate resources. No central planning committee created U.S. economic leadership by picking which corporations to subsidize, so no central planning committee can "preserve" or restore that leadership by picking "winners" to subsidize. We need to let Schumpeter's creative disruption keep doing it's job of cleansing, educating and renewing the market through re-allocation of resources. That's what put us in the lead and it's what will keep us there.
  - onepointsixC 2y ago
    Shareholders already have huge risk and have lost big on Intel. Leading edge is too cutthroat, if it goes to bankruptcy it will be too late to ever catchup. It’s probably already too late and we just don’t know that we’re living in a Chinese century.
  - evanelias 2y ago
    > letting them pay themselves massive dividends Earlier this month, Intel announced that they've suspended dividend payments entirely. Prior to that, their dividend payments were decent but far from "massive".
- thijson 2y ago
  Intel doesn't have a monopoly on leading edge semiconductor manufacturing. The company that kind of does is ASML, they are based in the Netherlands, but there's an office in Connecticut.
  - mepian 2y ago
    The economics of making EUV tools versus running them 24/7 at high throughput are very different.
  - piva00 2y ago
    ASML is a tooling company, they don't fabricate semiconductors.
- kyledrake 2y ago
  America succeeds when we let unprofitable companies die and it fails when we subsidize them to the point that they can't run an undistorted budget or be competitive anymore. That is the difference between here and the places that will never even get close regardless of how many unprofitable silicon wafer factories they allow to crawl around the ground like sick mutants. Speaking of, how's Boeing doing lately?
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    To that point, how is American manufacturing or shipbuilding doing lately? There a case to be made for subsidizing core enabling industries.
    - kyledrake 2y ago
      Like Cuba did with the sugar industry? They can't even make sugar anymore. Distorting markets usually destroys them. Intel isn't too big to fail.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        Like Europe did with aircraft manufacturing? Or Japan did with auto manufacturing? Or Taiwan did with semi? Or South Korea did with semi/auto/ship? There's a lot of successful examples of governments using protectionism and subsidies to build globally competitive industries.
        me_me_me 2y ago
        Correct, but one can make a point those were an impetus measures that allow those to kick off and operate at competitive level In case of Boeing their business pivoted in order to extract the funds themselves, not to use funds to make products. Thats the problem, corruption and profit chasing over product creation.
      - KK7NIL 2y ago
        Yes, because any subsidy is literally communism. /s How's the US farming industry doing? I wonder why you brought up a completely different industry in a different country ran by a dictator instead of a core industry right here in the US that has been heavily subsidized for decades and for very good reason.
onepointsixC 2y ago
While I agree their comp is abysmal, if Intel fails America is completely screwed. TSMC will never place leading edge in America and Beijing has the most advanced fabs in the world, which they’re already largely blocked from using, in rocket artillery range. None of our software roles mean anything if we don’t have hardware to run it on.

KK7NIL 2y ago

The "companies all of their employees moved to" don't make leading edge semiconductors with US based R&D, so I don't know why you're acting like they'd be able to do what Intel does. This isn't about Intel, it's about keeping US companies competitive in leading edge semiconductor manufacturing. If we let Intel fail, we'd have an even tougher battle to get some other US company to compete.

schmidtleonard 2y ago
Ok, so let bankruptcy wipe out the shareholders and then let someone more responsible buy the good parts at auction. Or nationalize it. If shareholders aren't taking risk and responsibility, why the hell are we putting them in charge and letting them pay themselves massive dividends?
- KK7NIL 2y ago
  1) No other US company is capable of using the parts for leading edge semiconductors. Case in point: GlobalFoundry had EUV machines but returned them to ASML as they weren't able to compete technically and capital wise. They would be the best to take over Intel's assets but they weren't competitive years ago, why would they be now? 2) idk where you're getting the idea that Intel is paying massive dividends when it has been one of the worst performing tech stocks for years. The SW companies juiced up on low interest rates have done far better.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    > They would be the best to take over Intel's assets but they weren't competitive years ago, why would they be now? Yeah. Channelling Michael Dell, October 6, 1997, they should shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders. Or more seriously, everything changes over time. Intel goes from good to bad, GlobalFoundry can go from bad to good.
- mrandish 2y ago
  Excellent observation. Setting "preserving XYZ corporation" as a national priority is focusing on the wrong thing. Corporations are temporary constructs formed out of combinations of resources (human, capital, IP, etc) to organize and maximize the value of those resources. If we really care about fostering and furthering these resources, we need to free them from being held captive, under-utilized and mis-allocated inside a repeatedly failing corporation - not propping up failing corporations. If the resources in question really are both viable and valuable, releasing them will allow the free market to do what it does best - efficiently allocate resources. No central planning committee created U.S. economic leadership by picking which corporations to subsidize, so no central planning committee can "preserve" or restore that leadership by picking "winners" to subsidize. We need to let Schumpeter's creative disruption keep doing it's job of cleansing, educating and renewing the market through re-allocation of resources. That's what put us in the lead and it's what will keep us there.
- onepointsixC 2y ago
  Shareholders already have huge risk and have lost big on Intel. Leading edge is too cutthroat, if it goes to bankruptcy it will be too late to ever catchup. It’s probably already too late and we just don’t know that we’re living in a Chinese century.
- evanelias 2y ago
  > letting them pay themselves massive dividends Earlier this month, Intel announced that they've suspended dividend payments entirely. Prior to that, their dividend payments were decent but far from "massive".
thijson 2y ago
Intel doesn't have a monopoly on leading edge semiconductor manufacturing. The company that kind of does is ASML, they are based in the Netherlands, but there's an office in Connecticut.
- mepian 2y ago
  The economics of making EUV tools versus running them 24/7 at high throughput are very different.
- piva00 2y ago
  ASML is a tooling company, they don't fabricate semiconductors.
kyledrake 2y ago
America succeeds when we let unprofitable companies die and it fails when we subsidize them to the point that they can't run an undistorted budget or be competitive anymore. That is the difference between here and the places that will never even get close regardless of how many unprofitable silicon wafer factories they allow to crawl around the ground like sick mutants. Speaking of, how's Boeing doing lately?
- ethbr1 2y ago
  To that point, how is American manufacturing or shipbuilding doing lately? There a case to be made for subsidizing core enabling industries.
  - kyledrake 2y ago
    Like Cuba did with the sugar industry? They can't even make sugar anymore. Distorting markets usually destroys them. Intel isn't too big to fail.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Like Europe did with aircraft manufacturing? Or Japan did with auto manufacturing? Or Taiwan did with semi? Or South Korea did with semi/auto/ship? There's a lot of successful examples of governments using protectionism and subsidies to build globally competitive industries.
      - me_me_me 2y ago
        Correct, but one can make a point those were an impetus measures that allow those to kick off and operate at competitive level In case of Boeing their business pivoted in order to extract the funds themselves, not to use funds to make products. Thats the problem, corruption and profit chasing over product creation.
    - KK7NIL 2y ago
      Yes, because any subsidy is literally communism. /s How's the US farming industry doing? I wonder why you brought up a completely different industry in a different country ran by a dictator instead of a core industry right here in the US that has been heavily subsidized for decades and for very good reason.

onepointsixC 2y ago

While I agree their comp is abysmal, if Intel fails America is completely screwed. TSMC will never place leading edge in America and Beijing has the most advanced fabs in the world, which they’re already largely blocked from using, in rocket artillery range. None of our software roles mean anything if we don’t have hardware to run it on.