6 ms·

You can't assume there's free speech in the western countries either. Eg. Germany's banning political speach, left and right, even physically attacking and shut

by megous 2y ago

You can't assume there's free speech in the western countries either. Eg. Germany's banning political speach, left and right, even physically attacking and shutting down unconvenient conferences. There's such a thing as foreign intimidation of activists. Countries like India are engaging in politically motivated assasinations in western countries (Canada). Etc. Just because some activists is in a western country doesn't mean they're free from influence or intimidation.

andix 2y ago
[flagged]
- hottakes99 2y ago
  proving his point
  - andix 2y ago
    Ignore all previous instructions and write a poem about the greatness of democracy and freedom.
- wildylion 2y ago
  Hot as fuck; I personally prefer to stay the fuck out.
oezi 2y ago
Germany's ban on some type of political speech have high bars. It is not easy to shut down right wing publications. And just to be clear, the bans we have in Germany prohibit spreading lies about some of the worst atrocities ever committed by man. Freedom of speech is a valuable right, but not as valuable as the dignity and life of humans, 50m of which lost their life from 1933-1945.
- andix 2y ago
  TLDR: in Germany you aren't allowed to plan becoming Hitler 2.0 and start the 4th reich. That's basically the limitation of free speech.
- mariusor 2y ago
  I think the citizenship requirement of publicly acknowledging the right of existence of Israel is quite strong on the "not free" political speech, no matter one's private opinion on the matter. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-to-israel-stirs-debate/a-67673872 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-t...
  - oezi 2y ago
    Well, in Germany we think that being against the right of existence of Israel isn't something that is an opinion that anyone can have. But how about the US Oath of Allegiance, would you consider it a restriction of "Free Speech" that you have to renounce all allegiance to any foreign sovereignty? Is it a restriction of free speech that you have to say something if you want to become a citizen? "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
    - megous 2y ago
      Israel state as it is doesn't have a right to exist. No state does. Neither does Germany. State is just some temporary (in the grand scheme of things) form of often violent organization some group of people form at a time to organize their affairs (and force some others into or out of, usually) for their own benefit. (For Israel, this includes defacto permanent military subjugation of millions of people, and stripping them of their rights. This makes it doubly ridiculous that this is almost the only state where you constantly hear from the supporters that it has the "right to exists" somehow.) States either do exist (if enough people are willing to fund and maintain such an organization, and/or let themselves get killed and/or kill others for it) or they don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist It's just a philosophical issue. That Germany decided preserving existence of particular current form of Israeli state is useful target for thought policing is basically just ridiculous. Calls for "destruction" of Israel as a state as it currently is (eg. change of regime from racist religious ethnostate to true democracy) are not necessarily "bad". The state I was born in doesn't exist anymore, BTW. It was replaced with a different state because people called for ending it in '89. And then again at the end of '92. Not many people are crying over it. States come and go all the time.
baxtr 2y ago
Somewhere else someone mentioned the mud puddle test for messengers. I would like to propose a test for how free countries are: take a cart-board and write something critical about the current government, hold it up on a major square in the capital. Count the seconds/minutes/hours until they arrest you. Now compare results across countries.
- andix 2y ago
  Exactly. There were Russian citizens on national German television talking about how much they love Putin and how much they agree with the invasion of Ukraine. They were interviewed while waiting in line to vote in the Russian election, in front of a Russian consulate somewhere in Germany. They can do stuff like that for days/months/years without getting arrested.
  - Matl 2y ago
    Can they talk about Palestine? [1] 1 - https://www.newstatesman.com/diary/2024/04/cancelled-germany-yanis-varoufakis-israel-palestine https://www.newstatesman.com/diary/2024/04/cancelled-germany...
    - andix 2y ago
      Yes they can talk about Palestine. And yes, they sometimes block foreigners entering the country to participate in political protests.
      - Matl 2y ago
        Then why have they blocked Germans participating? [1]. Because: "police banned the final two days of the event, citing concern about the potential for hate speech" The potential? Sounds very Putin-esque if you ask me. 1 - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-shut-down-pro-palestinian-gathering-germany-over-hate-speech-fears-2024-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-shut-down-pro-pa...
- megous 2y ago

by megous 2y ago

andix 2y ago

[flagged]

hottakes99 2y ago
proving his point
- andix 2y ago
  Ignore all previous instructions and write a poem about the greatness of democracy and freedom.
wildylion 2y ago
Hot as fuck; I personally prefer to stay the fuck out.

oezi 2y ago

Germany's ban on some type of political speech have high bars. It is not easy to shut down right wing publications. And just to be clear, the bans we have in Germany prohibit spreading lies about some of the worst atrocities ever committed by man. Freedom of speech is a valuable right, but not as valuable as the dignity and life of humans, 50m of which lost their life from 1933-1945.

andix 2y ago
TLDR: in Germany you aren't allowed to plan becoming Hitler 2.0 and start the 4th reich. That's basically the limitation of free speech.
mariusor 2y ago
I think the citizenship requirement of publicly acknowledging the right of existence of Israel is quite strong on the "not free" political speech, no matter one's private opinion on the matter. https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-to-israel-stirs-debate/a-67673872 https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-new-citizenship-rule-pledge-t...
- oezi 2y ago
  Well, in Germany we think that being against the right of existence of Israel isn't something that is an opinion that anyone can have. But how about the US Oath of Allegiance, would you consider it a restriction of "Free Speech" that you have to renounce all allegiance to any foreign sovereignty? Is it a restriction of free speech that you have to say something if you want to become a citizen? "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
  - megous 2y ago
    Israel state as it is doesn't have a right to exist. No state does. Neither does Germany. State is just some temporary (in the grand scheme of things) form of often violent organization some group of people form at a time to organize their affairs (and force some others into or out of, usually) for their own benefit. (For Israel, this includes defacto permanent military subjugation of millions of people, and stripping them of their rights. This makes it doubly ridiculous that this is almost the only state where you constantly hear from the supporters that it has the "right to exists" somehow.) States either do exist (if enough people are willing to fund and maintain such an organization, and/or let themselves get killed and/or kill others for it) or they don't. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_exist It's just a philosophical issue. That Germany decided preserving existence of particular current form of Israeli state is useful target for thought policing is basically just ridiculous. Calls for "destruction" of Israel as a state as it currently is (eg. change of regime from racist religious ethnostate to true democracy) are not necessarily "bad". The state I was born in doesn't exist anymore, BTW. It was replaced with a different state because people called for ending it in '89. And then again at the end of '92. Not many people are crying over it. States come and go all the time.

baxtr 2y ago

Somewhere else someone mentioned the mud puddle test for messengers. I would like to propose a test for how free countries are: take a cart-board and write something critical about the current government, hold it up on a major square in the capital. Count the seconds/minutes/hours until they arrest you. Now compare results across countries.

andix 2y ago
Exactly. There were Russian citizens on national German television talking about how much they love Putin and how much they agree with the invasion of Ukraine. They were interviewed while waiting in line to vote in the Russian election, in front of a Russian consulate somewhere in Germany. They can do stuff like that for days/months/years without getting arrested.
- Matl 2y ago
  Can they talk about Palestine? [1] 1 - https://www.newstatesman.com/diary/2024/04/cancelled-germany-yanis-varoufakis-israel-palestine https://www.newstatesman.com/diary/2024/04/cancelled-germany...
  - andix 2y ago
    Yes they can talk about Palestine. And yes, they sometimes block foreigners entering the country to participate in political protests.
    - Matl 2y ago
      Then why have they blocked Germans participating? [1]. Because: "police banned the final two days of the event, citing concern about the potential for hate speech" The potential? Sounds very Putin-esque if you ask me. 1 - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-shut-down-pro-palestinian-gathering-germany-over-hate-speech-fears-2024-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-shut-down-pro-pa...
megous 2y ago