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Isn't that by design? Many/most crypto schemes are designed to democratize access to money and thus they disintermediate traditional players (banks, central ban

Isn't that by design? Many/most crypto schemes are designed to democratize access to money and thus they disintermediate traditional players (banks, central banks, etc.). Of course governments and tax authorities are one such traditional player, so they will be disintermediated. The government calls it "tax evasion", while the crypto world calls it a feature.

sealeck 2y ago
> Of course governments and tax authorities are one such traditional player, so they will be disintermediated. The government calls it "tax evasion", while the crypto world calls it a feature. Where do these people think tax revenue goes? Into a big black hole? The money goes to pay for the justice system (which protects property rights, prevents people from killing each other), build and maintain infrastructure of all kinds (roads, bridges, mass transit, sewage systems, water treatment facilities), education, etc. Without the government we'd be much, much worse off.
- corry 2y ago
  Perhaps things aren't so binary on either side. Some people using crypto are criminals, terrorists, and (perhaps less concerning albeit more numerous) tax-evaders. Some aren't. And on the other side, some (much?) government spending is inefficient, highly-politicized, and perhaps contrary to someone's moral compass (e.g. the average American citizen sends $11.34 each year to Israel, or sends Uncle Sam a whopping $140/yr -- out of their own pockets -- to fund the 'War on Drugs' which disproportionately puts black men into prison for small amounts of personal cannabis possession). So yes, gov tax spending builds roads and defends property rights - but that doesn't mean it's all good. A reasonable person can take issue with both the size and targets of much of the spending. Anyways, my point isn't to debate the pros/cons of particular government spending examples, but rather that the average person has not just reason but also a duty to assess how government spending happens, whether or not that aligns with their values, and to vote and organize appropriately to try to change that. If you're already a bit more libertarian, skeptical of federal monetary policy, morally conflicted about how your tax dollars are spent, in tech with a love of technology, then ya you probably are going to like the fact that crypto is outside of the normal system.
  - decremental 2y ago
    [dead]
- zarzavat 2y ago
  > Without the government we'd be much, much worse off. Who is “we” here? In some countries tax revenue goes to improving services, in some countries it goes to the President’s brother-in-law, in some countries it goes to military incursions that are morally repugnant. Tax, like cryptocurrency, isn’t intrinsically good or bad. They are both tools that could be used for benevolent or malevolent purposes depending on who is using them.
  - beaglesss 2y ago
    That's why I'd argue each service should be 'taxed' at the point of use. If you like a road, pay the toll. If you like sewage, build a septic system or pay for treatment. If you want to help Ukraine, fly on over or donate to the cause.
    - baseballdork 2y ago
      Great idea. I can save on money by shitting in the street instead of paying for treatment. I'll just dump my trash as well. This way only things that everyone absolutely has to use, or things the fabulously wealthy want, will be funded. What could go wrong?
      - beaglesss 2y ago
        Sure you could. In fact many do in places like San Francisco where regulations and taxes and construction costs are so high many end up homeless then poop all over the streets. Where I live there is absolutely no public sewage and I built my own system and so did most my neighbors, because as it turns out in our low tax libertarian enclave of mostly poor people, the vast majority prefer 10k once every few decades on a septic system over living in shit or getting in feuds with their neighbors for shitting on their road or lawn (there are no public roads here thank god). Your paranoia turned out unfounded.
        baseballdork 2y ago
        Ah, it’s the taxes and regulations that cause the homeless to shit on the street. Surely if there were pay toilets all over the Bay Area the homeless wouldn’t do that anymore. Your “low tax libertarian enclave” where folks evidently can afford to drop $10k occasionally sure doesn’t sound like it’ll scale up to 12 million people.
- GrassTheBikes 2y ago
  [flagged]
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  It also goes toward funding foreign wars and criminals (depending on your political leanings).
tgv 2y ago
> democratize access to money Is that the latest euphemism? Tell me, where can I get the money? A lot of it, please.
- vkou 2y ago
  The Communists of the 20th century should have used it in their sales pitch. After all, redistribution is all about democratizing access to money, capital, and land.
- avery17 2y ago
  Start mining.
- xyzzy4747 2y ago
  Mining, airdrops, or minting your own
- mistercheph 2y ago
  Try saving the local currency in a country with a government that is actively debasing its currency to fund the ventures of its aristocracy, and you will understand that having access to a secure, transferable store of the value of your work is not universal, but a privilege assured by the power of trillions of dollars of fighter jets.
  - beaglesss 2y ago
    Gold and many other useful commodities are valuable with or without fighter jets backing them.
    - mistercheph 2y ago
      Yes, but not transferable.
      - beaglesss 2y ago
        Commodity money has been a thing in many times in history.
bdcravens 2y ago
Most, if not virtually all, crypto users use exchanges, and unless they're conducting pure crypto transactions, or trading directly in cash, they use a bank at some point.
conradev 2y ago
Coinbase follows US law. They are designed to disintermediate traditional players like banks, yes, but not the USG. They are at the mercy of the USG.
- wmf 2y ago
  Yet they resisted sending 1099s for years.
tzs 2y ago
> Of course governments and tax authorities are one such traditional player, so they will be disintermediated. The government calls it "tax evasion", while the crypto world calls it a feature. There's an old quote along the lines of "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it". First said, probably, by Jean de La Fontaine in the 17th century, but probably more widely known from its use by Master Oogway in "Kung Fu Panda". It is not hard to think of ways that governments could stop much crypto tax evasion, at the cost of a general lowering of financial privacy. The crypto world might think that people would not put up with that, but most people already willingly give up much financial privacy for the convenience of credit and debit cards. For most people its not all that big a leap from the amount of privacy they have given up to their bank for a credit card and the amount of privacy they'd have to give up to allow tax evaders to be stopped, and if their taxes are higher because of too much crypto tax evasion they will have no problem making that leap.

sealeck 2y ago

> Of course governments and tax authorities are one such traditional player, so they will be disintermediated. The government calls it "tax evasion", while the crypto world calls it a feature. Where do these people think tax revenue goes? Into a big black hole? The money goes to pay for the justice system (which protects property rights, prevents people from killing each other), build and maintain infrastructure of all kinds (roads, bridges, mass transit, sewage systems, water treatment facilities), education, etc. Without the government we'd be much, much worse off.

corry 2y ago
Perhaps things aren't so binary on either side. Some people using crypto are criminals, terrorists, and (perhaps less concerning albeit more numerous) tax-evaders. Some aren't. And on the other side, some (much?) government spending is inefficient, highly-politicized, and perhaps contrary to someone's moral compass (e.g. the average American citizen sends $11.34 each year to Israel, or sends Uncle Sam a whopping $140/yr -- out of their own pockets -- to fund the 'War on Drugs' which disproportionately puts black men into prison for small amounts of personal cannabis possession). So yes, gov tax spending builds roads and defends property rights - but that doesn't mean it's all good. A reasonable person can take issue with both the size and targets of much of the spending. Anyways, my point isn't to debate the pros/cons of particular government spending examples, but rather that the average person has not just reason but also a duty to assess how government spending happens, whether or not that aligns with their values, and to vote and organize appropriately to try to change that. If you're already a bit more libertarian, skeptical of federal monetary policy, morally conflicted about how your tax dollars are spent, in tech with a love of technology, then ya you probably are going to like the fact that crypto is outside of the normal system.
- decremental 2y ago
  [dead]
zarzavat 2y ago
> Without the government we'd be much, much worse off. Who is “we” here? In some countries tax revenue goes to improving services, in some countries it goes to the President’s brother-in-law, in some countries it goes to military incursions that are morally repugnant. Tax, like cryptocurrency, isn’t intrinsically good or bad. They are both tools that could be used for benevolent or malevolent purposes depending on who is using them.
- beaglesss 2y ago
  That's why I'd argue each service should be 'taxed' at the point of use. If you like a road, pay the toll. If you like sewage, build a septic system or pay for treatment. If you want to help Ukraine, fly on over or donate to the cause.
  - baseballdork 2y ago
    Great idea. I can save on money by shitting in the street instead of paying for treatment. I'll just dump my trash as well. This way only things that everyone absolutely has to use, or things the fabulously wealthy want, will be funded. What could go wrong?
    - beaglesss 2y ago
      Sure you could. In fact many do in places like San Francisco where regulations and taxes and construction costs are so high many end up homeless then poop all over the streets. Where I live there is absolutely no public sewage and I built my own system and so did most my neighbors, because as it turns out in our low tax libertarian enclave of mostly poor people, the vast majority prefer 10k once every few decades on a septic system over living in shit or getting in feuds with their neighbors for shitting on their road or lawn (there are no public roads here thank god). Your paranoia turned out unfounded.
      - baseballdork 2y ago
        Ah, it’s the taxes and regulations that cause the homeless to shit on the street. Surely if there were pay toilets all over the Bay Area the homeless wouldn’t do that anymore. Your “low tax libertarian enclave” where folks evidently can afford to drop $10k occasionally sure doesn’t sound like it’ll scale up to 12 million people.
GrassTheBikes 2y ago
[flagged]
Ferret7446 2y ago
It also goes toward funding foreign wars and criminals (depending on your political leanings).

tgv 2y ago

> democratize access to money Is that the latest euphemism? Tell me, where can I get the money? A lot of it, please.

vkou 2y ago
The Communists of the 20th century should have used it in their sales pitch. After all, redistribution is all about democratizing access to money, capital, and land.
avery17 2y ago
Start mining.
xyzzy4747 2y ago
Mining, airdrops, or minting your own
mistercheph 2y ago
Try saving the local currency in a country with a government that is actively debasing its currency to fund the ventures of its aristocracy, and you will understand that having access to a secure, transferable store of the value of your work is not universal, but a privilege assured by the power of trillions of dollars of fighter jets.
- beaglesss 2y ago
  Gold and many other useful commodities are valuable with or without fighter jets backing them.
  - mistercheph 2y ago
    Yes, but not transferable.
    - beaglesss 2y ago
      Commodity money has been a thing in many times in history.

bdcravens 2y ago

Most, if not virtually all, crypto users use exchanges, and unless they're conducting pure crypto transactions, or trading directly in cash, they use a bank at some point.

conradev 2y ago

Coinbase follows US law. They are designed to disintermediate traditional players like banks, yes, but not the USG. They are at the mercy of the USG.

wmf 2y ago
Yet they resisted sending 1099s for years.

tzs 2y ago

> Of course governments and tax authorities are one such traditional player, so they will be disintermediated. The government calls it "tax evasion", while the crypto world calls it a feature. There's an old quote along the lines of "One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it". First said, probably, by Jean de La Fontaine in the 17th century, but probably more widely known from its use by Master Oogway in "Kung Fu Panda". It is not hard to think of ways that governments could stop much crypto tax evasion, at the cost of a general lowering of financial privacy. The crypto world might think that people would not put up with that, but most people already willingly give up much financial privacy for the convenience of credit and debit cards. For most people its not all that big a leap from the amount of privacy they have given up to their bank for a credit card and the amount of privacy they'd have to give up to allow tax evaders to be stopped, and if their taxes are higher because of too much crypto tax evasion they will have no problem making that leap.