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> This made me realize how fun games are going to become when integrated with AI, where we aren't limited to the coded option dialogues. I was on this train fo

> This made me realize how fun games are going to become when integrated with AI, where we aren't limited to the coded option dialogues. I was on this train for a bit until after reading some posts from game developers as to why this is probably a terrible idea to the point of unfeasibility - game design (as I understand it) deals with a finite set of outcomes in a controlled environment. "Integrating" AI with games would involve shattering this constraint in a way that would make games inherently unstable/untestable - at least if I am understanding the argument correctly.

amonon 2y ago
I broadly agree with you. Constraints give rise to creativity.
- chrisnolet 2y ago
  100%. Putting on flying shoes to escape any situation isn’t actually all that fun, (after the first time). The trick is to figure out how to put appropriate guardrails and narrative structure on an otherwise too open-ended LLM. If you just leave GPT to its own devices, it allows everything and goes everywhere.
mmmm2 2y ago
Yeah, it's certainly difficult to balance the game if players have complete flexibility. From my limited DMing experience, much of the challenges is handling when players do something you haven't anticipated. For most encounters (video games do this too) I think about 1. The stealth approach (why yes there is a secret entrance underneath the castle). 2. The direct approach. Like just kicking down the door and heading in. 3. Negotiation: Is there a way to strike a deal with the bad guy? Beyond that I fall back on trying to provide a realistic response from the game world, but sometimes the players are creative enough that you have to redo the whole thing on the fly.
- chrisnolet 2y ago
  Do you ever tell players that they flat-out can’t do something? Do players realize when they’re going off-script? (Do you let them know with a sigh or a long stare, or do you just roll with it and encourage the playful creativity?) I like your three-part planning a lot! That’s a great framework.
bee_rider 2y ago
I dunno. Games that try to tell an interesting story, the real arty stuff, all that might not be able to use it well. But Minecraft with good NPC’s, all the open world stuff, that seems like it could be really fun and cool. How much time did people spend actually engaging with the deep and thoughtful narrative in Skyrim? And how much did they spend just enjoying the world? The latter could be really enhanced with an AI DM, in the medium-term, I bet.
- itishappy 2y ago
  > How much time did people spend actually engaging with the deep and thoughtful narrative in Skyrim? And how much did they spend just enjoying the world? Ah, but the world of Skyrim is itself the deep and thoughtful narrative. It has been painstakingly crafted to give the characters, locations, and history meaning and interest. Only the barest minimum amount of freedom is then sprinkled on top in the form of player agency. The consistency is what makes it so interesting! For an AI generated story, you'll need to find a way to ensure everything stays coherent. If I convince a random farmer that it's in his best interest to try to kill the king or marry the mayor's daughter, but come back the next week to find him contentedly plowing his field again, my immersion is broken and my day is ruined! I suspect that giving this level of freedom to NPCs will make crafting a stable (playable) world difficult to impossible.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Yeah, I think the AI can’t be the simulation. There needs to be a conventional game under it. If you convince the farmer to go kill the king right this instant, the AI could order that pawn to go try and do it, combat mechanics happen, and then you have a dead farmer, a slightly bruised guard, and an empty farm. I mean, we have lots of fun in much dumber worlds, where the peak of NPC design is bots that walk from their jobs to their homes at certain times of day. And maybe something slightly more advanced will fall into an uncanny valley (we probably don’t have the technology to simulate an AI farmer following your advice to take part in a grand conspiracy to kill the king).
    - 2y ago

amonon 2y ago

I broadly agree with you. Constraints give rise to creativity.

chrisnolet 2y ago
100%. Putting on flying shoes to escape any situation isn’t actually all that fun, (after the first time). The trick is to figure out how to put appropriate guardrails and narrative structure on an otherwise too open-ended LLM. If you just leave GPT to its own devices, it allows everything and goes everywhere.

mmmm2 2y ago

Yeah, it's certainly difficult to balance the game if players have complete flexibility. From my limited DMing experience, much of the challenges is handling when players do something you haven't anticipated. For most encounters (video games do this too) I think about 1. The stealth approach (why yes there is a secret entrance underneath the castle). 2. The direct approach. Like just kicking down the door and heading in. 3. Negotiation: Is there a way to strike a deal with the bad guy? Beyond that I fall back on trying to provide a realistic response from the game world, but sometimes the players are creative enough that you have to redo the whole thing on the fly.

chrisnolet 2y ago
Do you ever tell players that they flat-out can’t do something? Do players realize when they’re going off-script? (Do you let them know with a sigh or a long stare, or do you just roll with it and encourage the playful creativity?) I like your three-part planning a lot! That’s a great framework.

bee_rider 2y ago

I dunno. Games that try to tell an interesting story, the real arty stuff, all that might not be able to use it well. But Minecraft with good NPC’s, all the open world stuff, that seems like it could be really fun and cool. How much time did people spend actually engaging with the deep and thoughtful narrative in Skyrim? And how much did they spend just enjoying the world? The latter could be really enhanced with an AI DM, in the medium-term, I bet.

itishappy 2y ago
> How much time did people spend actually engaging with the deep and thoughtful narrative in Skyrim? And how much did they spend just enjoying the world? Ah, but the world of Skyrim is itself the deep and thoughtful narrative. It has been painstakingly crafted to give the characters, locations, and history meaning and interest. Only the barest minimum amount of freedom is then sprinkled on top in the form of player agency. The consistency is what makes it so interesting! For an AI generated story, you'll need to find a way to ensure everything stays coherent. If I convince a random farmer that it's in his best interest to try to kill the king or marry the mayor's daughter, but come back the next week to find him contentedly plowing his field again, my immersion is broken and my day is ruined! I suspect that giving this level of freedom to NPCs will make crafting a stable (playable) world difficult to impossible.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Yeah, I think the AI can’t be the simulation. There needs to be a conventional game under it. If you convince the farmer to go kill the king right this instant, the AI could order that pawn to go try and do it, combat mechanics happen, and then you have a dead farmer, a slightly bruised guard, and an empty farm. I mean, we have lots of fun in much dumber worlds, where the peak of NPC design is bots that walk from their jobs to their homes at certain times of day. And maybe something slightly more advanced will fall into an uncanny valley (we probably don’t have the technology to simulate an AI farmer following your advice to take part in a grand conspiracy to kill the king).
  - 2y ago