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Is it complicated? telegram purports to be "encrypted". There has been no audit of that. The servers live in a country with questionable legal standing for di

Is it complicated? telegram purports to be "encrypted". There has been no audit of that. The servers live in a country with questionable legal standing for digital citizens. What the French say they are arresting him for, and what they actually know might not be the same. Given telegrams position the cyber criminal world, and its place in Russia and eastern Europe I would not be surprised if there is a litany of reasons we aren't hearing about.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Is it complicated? Yes. We're dealing with French law on French soil in respect of a dual national. We literally have zero official documents from the arrest. (EDIT: We got one!) This could be an elaborate scheme to route out an FSB plot. Or it could be as simple as he has a bunch of drugs on his jet. In summary, it's a fundamentally complicated situation into which we have imperfect information. Coming to a strong conclusion, at this point, is an expression of faith. Not reason.
- judge2020 2y ago
  I think this is the doc, saw it on Twitter 1h ago: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files... relevant: > So it appears that Pavel Durov has been using cryptography without a license. Direct link to image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=... https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226 https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Thank you. Echoing the original comment about "anyone coming down at the extreme of either side of this... greatly simplifying a very complex issue," (a) very few people with strong feelings about this case had this document when they came to a conclusion and (b) this document is not enough to make an informed decision about what's going on.
    - emptysongglass 2y ago
      Yes, and, people like devman0 making this top-rated comment in the last thread: >A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. When they have absolutely no idea what's going on. The number one terrible take is this very quoted comment. Commenters and their supporters on this site love to make unequivocal statements like this as if they possessed the mind of god themselves. But devman0 and people who upvoted their comment: you are responsible for this misinformation. Think before you shout to the heavens on a topic you know absolutely nothing about. That's on all of you. Anyone else reading this comment thread: discuss with restraint based on the knowledge you have. Unless you are directly involved in this case, you don't have even the faintest clue of what you're talking about.
    - jcranmer 2y ago
      It's a press release, not a document that substantively lays out the factual allegations. Compare that to something like the indictment here in the US: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149.1.0_9.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.258..., where it is pretty explicitly laid out what the alleged acts were that led to each of the counts. So it's still manifestly unclear why he was arrested (although I note that the press release says he wasn't arrested, merely held for questioning until Wednesday).
  - zer00eyz 2y ago
    SO they snatched him over something that is in effect "administrative"? Nothing complicated. He got snatched because someone somewhere wants something from him and this is the "public" reason. If he's out, telegram is compromised, if he stays in we can't even assume that it isn't.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > SO they snatched him over something that is in effect "administrative"? Did we read the same warrant? Those aren't all administrative charges.
kylebenzle 2y ago
Also, remember in 2022 Snowden swore allegiance to Russia when he became a citizen so we can't just assume he is neutral. * https://www.opb.org/article/2023/06/04/a-decade-on-edward-snowden-remains-in-russia-though-u-s-laws-have-changed/ https://www.opb.org/article/2023/06/04/a-decade-on-edward-sn...
- RobotToaster 2y ago
  He didn't have much choice, since the USA wanted to Epstein him.
  - karp773 2y ago
    Does he have a choice now not to look like a clown? It's an interesting question.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Does he have a choice now not to look like a clown? Probably not. I doubt, for example, that he could surrender himself to the West if he wanted to.
  - psunavy03 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      [flagged]
- g15jv2dp 2y ago
  Durov chose to become a French citizen. What do you make of that?
- krunck 2y ago
  Most of us give our "loyalties" to the power structures native to the lands we live in because it gives more more benefits than not doing that.
paulpauper 2y ago
assume anything posted on a chat app will or can be public. someone can literally take a screenshot of the conversation even if encrypted.
- lxgr 2y ago
  You're mentioning two (largely orthogonal) threats to messaging privacy, and arguing that because we can't really do much about one, we should also just ignore the other?
  - paulpauper 2y ago
    or maybe don't use chat apps at all if you care about privacy. not a hard concept
anigbrowl 2y ago
telegram purports to be "encrypted". The whole encryption issue seems like a total sideshow to me. I've been on Telegram for years and only exchanged a few DMs in that time. There are tons of public channels which require no approval or exchange of information to join.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Is it complicated? Yes. We're dealing with French law on French soil in respect of a dual national. We literally have zero official documents from the arrest. (EDIT: We got one!) This could be an elaborate scheme to route out an FSB plot. Or it could be as simple as he has a bunch of drugs on his jet. In summary, it's a fundamentally complicated situation into which we have imperfect information. Coming to a strong conclusion, at this point, is an expression of faith. Not reason.

judge2020 2y ago
I think this is the doc, saw it on Twitter 1h ago: https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26%20-%20CP%20TELEGRAM%20.pdf https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files... relevant: > So it appears that Pavel Durov has been using cryptography without a license. Direct link to image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV7S_fMaoAAf3w3?format=jpg&name=... https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226 https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1828130491805192226
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Thank you. Echoing the original comment about "anyone coming down at the extreme of either side of this... greatly simplifying a very complex issue," (a) very few people with strong feelings about this case had this document when they came to a conclusion and (b) this document is not enough to make an informed decision about what's going on.
  - emptysongglass 2y ago
    Yes, and, people like devman0 making this top-rated comment in the last thread: >A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. When they have absolutely no idea what's going on. The number one terrible take is this very quoted comment. Commenters and their supporters on this site love to make unequivocal statements like this as if they possessed the mind of god themselves. But devman0 and people who upvoted their comment: you are responsible for this misinformation. Think before you shout to the heavens on a topic you know absolutely nothing about. That's on all of you. Anyone else reading this comment thread: discuss with restraint based on the knowledge you have. Unless you are directly involved in this case, you don't have even the faintest clue of what you're talking about.
  - jcranmer 2y ago
    It's a press release, not a document that substantively lays out the factual allegations. Compare that to something like the indictment here in the US: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149/gov.uscourts.dcd.258149.1.0_9.pdf https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.258..., where it is pretty explicitly laid out what the alleged acts were that led to each of the counts. So it's still manifestly unclear why he was arrested (although I note that the press release says he wasn't arrested, merely held for questioning until Wednesday).
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  SO they snatched him over something that is in effect "administrative"? Nothing complicated. He got snatched because someone somewhere wants something from him and this is the "public" reason. If he's out, telegram is compromised, if he stays in we can't even assume that it isn't.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > SO they snatched him over something that is in effect "administrative"? Did we read the same warrant? Those aren't all administrative charges.

kylebenzle 2y ago

Also, remember in 2022 Snowden swore allegiance to Russia when he became a citizen so we can't just assume he is neutral. * https://www.opb.org/article/2023/06/04/a-decade-on-edward-snowden-remains-in-russia-though-u-s-laws-have-changed/ https://www.opb.org/article/2023/06/04/a-decade-on-edward-sn...

RobotToaster 2y ago
He didn't have much choice, since the USA wanted to Epstein him.
- karp773 2y ago
  Does he have a choice now not to look like a clown? It's an interesting question.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Does he have a choice now not to look like a clown? Probably not. I doubt, for example, that he could surrender himself to the West if he wanted to.
- psunavy03 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    [flagged]
g15jv2dp 2y ago
Durov chose to become a French citizen. What do you make of that?
krunck 2y ago
Most of us give our "loyalties" to the power structures native to the lands we live in because it gives more more benefits than not doing that.

paulpauper 2y ago

assume anything posted on a chat app will or can be public. someone can literally take a screenshot of the conversation even if encrypted.

lxgr 2y ago
You're mentioning two (largely orthogonal) threats to messaging privacy, and arguing that because we can't really do much about one, we should also just ignore the other?
- paulpauper 2y ago
  or maybe don't use chat apps at all if you care about privacy. not a hard concept

anigbrowl 2y ago

telegram purports to be "encrypted". The whole encryption issue seems like a total sideshow to me. I've been on Telegram for years and only exchanged a few DMs in that time. There are tons of public channels which require no approval or exchange of information to join.