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i hope i’m misconstruing what complicity means here but how long before law enforcement authorities are putting open source maintainers in jail for complicity,

i hope i’m misconstruing what complicity means here but how long before law enforcement authorities are putting open source maintainers in jail for complicity, because bad actors profited off their labor to terrible ends? the crypto utilities in go, for example, are extremely easy to use, and a competent programmer could fashion their own comms technology out of just that (i’m slightly exaggerating here). but then would law enforcement come for go’s authors?

oytis 2y ago
I _think_ the question here is whether you operate the platform and are able to help the police if requested. E.g. as a developer of an open-source messenger you are probably are not liable, as soon as you deploy and operate the same messenger, and refuse to provide the data you have you can become complicit. If police asks you to add a backdoor in your software though. As far as I know you are only explicitly obliged to do so in Australia.
- octacat 2y ago
  ok, so if someone is hosting a public xmpp server or a forum, they should check their emails.
  - oytis 2y ago
    I guess so? At least if police reaches out to prevent/stop/investigate a crime where you as an administrator are able to help, and you don't respond, it may be argued that you are complicit.
    - octacat 2y ago
      Yeah, now I understand why old forums is easier to remove than moderate. Or put on read-only.
maipen 2y ago
Software development is already considered a crime in some cases. Tornado cash devs were an example. Satoshi Nakamoto decision to remain anonymous and disappear seems wiser as time passes. I have seen people comparing durov with ross ulbricht which is mind boggling. This man created a messaging/social media app that is not controlled by the powers that be and now he is getting punished for his freedom and independence. Don’t let yourself be fooled. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. They are coming for us next.
- spacephysics 2y ago
  This screams guilty until proven innocent, and we’re seeing more weaponization of the courts in the West. Scary times.
- acdha 2y ago
  The Tornado cash developers were charged because they personally profited from criminal activity (laundering greater than $1 billion, helping North Korea). Someone developing software is not in the same situation if they are not also operating a service which criminals can use.
  - vaylian 2y ago
    Thanks. Do you have a source for this? The darknet diaries episode didn't mention that: https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/147/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/147/
    - mdhb 2y ago
      https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-charged-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-c...
  - 627467 2y ago
    Was it proven that tornado cash devs knowingly and intentionally laundered 1B and helper North Korea or are we just describing what a tumbler does which is to allow parties to mix in their money's and the tumbler operator takes a profit for running this? That's the problem with this "lowly devs engaging in biz that big finance guys without paying their dues to the rest of the extortion racket". Which HSBC executives got jailed for laundering billions for narcos during the GFC? Oh it was just a slap in the wrist fine.
mdhb 2y ago
Please take a deep breath and don’t get caught up in spiraling into some weird doom loop. He got done on child porn charges amongst other things. Nobody is coming for your GitHub account

oytis 2y ago

I _think_ the question here is whether you operate the platform and are able to help the police if requested. E.g. as a developer of an open-source messenger you are probably are not liable, as soon as you deploy and operate the same messenger, and refuse to provide the data you have you can become complicit. If police asks you to add a backdoor in your software though. As far as I know you are only explicitly obliged to do so in Australia.

octacat 2y ago
ok, so if someone is hosting a public xmpp server or a forum, they should check their emails.
- oytis 2y ago
  I guess so? At least if police reaches out to prevent/stop/investigate a crime where you as an administrator are able to help, and you don't respond, it may be argued that you are complicit.
  - octacat 2y ago
    Yeah, now I understand why old forums is easier to remove than moderate. Or put on read-only.

maipen 2y ago

Software development is already considered a crime in some cases. Tornado cash devs were an example. Satoshi Nakamoto decision to remain anonymous and disappear seems wiser as time passes. I have seen people comparing durov with ross ulbricht which is mind boggling. This man created a messaging/social media app that is not controlled by the powers that be and now he is getting punished for his freedom and independence. Don’t let yourself be fooled. Remember, innocent until proven guilty. They are coming for us next.

spacephysics 2y ago
This screams guilty until proven innocent, and we’re seeing more weaponization of the courts in the West. Scary times.
acdha 2y ago
The Tornado cash developers were charged because they personally profited from criminal activity (laundering greater than $1 billion, helping North Korea). Someone developing software is not in the same situation if they are not also operating a service which criminals can use.
- vaylian 2y ago
  Thanks. Do you have a source for this? The darknet diaries episode didn't mention that: https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/147/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/147/
  - mdhb 2y ago
    https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-charged-money-laundering-and-sanctions-violations https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/tornado-cash-founders-c...
- 627467 2y ago
  Was it proven that tornado cash devs knowingly and intentionally laundered 1B and helper North Korea or are we just describing what a tumbler does which is to allow parties to mix in their money's and the tumbler operator takes a profit for running this? That's the problem with this "lowly devs engaging in biz that big finance guys without paying their dues to the rest of the extortion racket". Which HSBC executives got jailed for laundering billions for narcos during the GFC? Oh it was just a slap in the wrist fine.

mdhb 2y ago

Please take a deep breath and don’t get caught up in spiraling into some weird doom loop. He got done on child porn charges amongst other things. Nobody is coming for your GitHub account