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Ask HN: Do house building laws like CA's "builder's remedy" work?

4 points by KittenInABox 2y ago

Do they actually build more housing? If no, what can be done to actually build more housing to help resolve the housing shortage?

mattbrewsbytes 2y ago
In order to determine if any laws work regarding zoning restrictions, they need to be in place for years to see the effects. Zoning specific areas based on income level is really a weird way to approach the problem. Something I heard about happening in the EU is that for something like an apartment building, they are built to house people from all income levels or rather maybe it is built with different sized apartments/flats. There should be no reason that a 3000sqft 4 bedroom apartment on the same floor as a 1500 sqft 2 bedroom apartment and/or a 800 sqft studio. It might actually make it easier for architects to solve problems if there were varying space sizes vs. an entire building of "luxury apartments" all the same.
- throwaway48540 2y ago
  Nobody here cares about "building for all income levels", that's some fantasy about European social utopia, but it's wrong. It's about what can you sell. You build a building with flats of 2-3 sizes - a lot of small ones for 1-2 people because small flats have highest cost per square meter, some bigger ones for people with families because there's only so many singles and young couples, and sometimes also few huge penthouses on the top level. In a high income capital city area it's all luxury, in a lower income area you do the same but the overall class (materials, sizing, amenities) is lowered.
fragmede 2y ago
The wheels of bureaucracy roll slowly, so there's no new housing just yet from it, but there are a number of projects that have been approved because of it.
brudgers 2y ago
Here are the facts that inform my opinion: 1. The market can not produce below-market-rate-housing. 2. The size of the construction loan correlates to the market segment of a development project. Building 80 high end dwellings requires a larger loan than building 80 low end dwellings. Banks like to make big loans. 10% of a lot of money is more money than 10% of a little money. 3. The amount of effort does not correlate to the market segment of a development project. Entitlement of 80 high end dwellings is much easier than entitlement of 80 low end dwellings because jurisdictions get more benefits from rich residents than from poor residents. 4. Scarcity of good affordable housing is the historical mean. 5. Real-estate is where wealth is parked, not where wealth is generated. If you have a billion dollars, your problem is keeping it not growing it. 6. Housing is the lowest and worst use of real-estate in the hierarchy of development because its economic value is not tied to the economic productivity of its use. Good luck.
- Jeremy1026 2y ago
  > 5. Real-estate is where wealth is parked, not where wealth is generated. If you have a billion dollars, your problem is keeping it not growing it. I disagree with this one. That billion dollars may be parked in real estate, but when you're ready to liquidate it you're (statistically speaking) more than likely to be pulling out more than the billion you put in.
  - brudgers 2y ago
    If you liquidate a billion dollars you have a problem. Where do you park a billion dollars? If you need to liquidate a billion dollars, it is not wealth.
    - Jeremy1026 2y ago
      If you are simply looking to put it somewhere, likely government bonds. Hedge yourself against inflation and call it a day.
      - brudgers 2y ago
        Bonds mature. In a few years you have to figure out where to park the billions. Land persists. In a hundred years the land will still be there growing grapes or grazing cattle. If you are hedging inflation, it’s not wealth. Don’t misunderstand me, I get where you are coming from. It is not the world of wealth. On the timeline of civilization capitalism is a recent innovation. Wealth is as old as civilization. Thinking about wealth with capitalist assumptions obscures wealth’s mechanisms.
        Jeremy1026 2y ago
        You park them back into more bonds, more accurately, your "money guy" buys more bonds with them. Once you're into _illions on hand, you no longer have a direct hand on your money.
        2y ago

4 points by KittenInABox 2y ago

Do they actually build more housing? If no, what can be done to actually build more housing to help resolve the housing shortage?

mattbrewsbytes 2y ago

In order to determine if any laws work regarding zoning restrictions, they need to be in place for years to see the effects. Zoning specific areas based on income level is really a weird way to approach the problem. Something I heard about happening in the EU is that for something like an apartment building, they are built to house people from all income levels or rather maybe it is built with different sized apartments/flats. There should be no reason that a 3000sqft 4 bedroom apartment on the same floor as a 1500 sqft 2 bedroom apartment and/or a 800 sqft studio. It might actually make it easier for architects to solve problems if there were varying space sizes vs. an entire building of "luxury apartments" all the same.

throwaway48540 2y ago
Nobody here cares about "building for all income levels", that's some fantasy about European social utopia, but it's wrong. It's about what can you sell. You build a building with flats of 2-3 sizes - a lot of small ones for 1-2 people because small flats have highest cost per square meter, some bigger ones for people with families because there's only so many singles and young couples, and sometimes also few huge penthouses on the top level. In a high income capital city area it's all luxury, in a lower income area you do the same but the overall class (materials, sizing, amenities) is lowered.

fragmede 2y ago

The wheels of bureaucracy roll slowly, so there's no new housing just yet from it, but there are a number of projects that have been approved because of it.

brudgers 2y ago

Here are the facts that inform my opinion: 1. The market can not produce below-market-rate-housing. 2. The size of the construction loan correlates to the market segment of a development project. Building 80 high end dwellings requires a larger loan than building 80 low end dwellings. Banks like to make big loans. 10% of a lot of money is more money than 10% of a little money. 3. The amount of effort does not correlate to the market segment of a development project. Entitlement of 80 high end dwellings is much easier than entitlement of 80 low end dwellings because jurisdictions get more benefits from rich residents than from poor residents. 4. Scarcity of good affordable housing is the historical mean. 5. Real-estate is where wealth is parked, not where wealth is generated. If you have a billion dollars, your problem is keeping it not growing it. 6. Housing is the lowest and worst use of real-estate in the hierarchy of development because its economic value is not tied to the economic productivity of its use. Good luck.

Jeremy1026 2y ago
> 5. Real-estate is where wealth is parked, not where wealth is generated. If you have a billion dollars, your problem is keeping it not growing it. I disagree with this one. That billion dollars may be parked in real estate, but when you're ready to liquidate it you're (statistically speaking) more than likely to be pulling out more than the billion you put in.
- brudgers 2y ago
  If you liquidate a billion dollars you have a problem. Where do you park a billion dollars? If you need to liquidate a billion dollars, it is not wealth.
  - Jeremy1026 2y ago
    If you are simply looking to put it somewhere, likely government bonds. Hedge yourself against inflation and call it a day.
    - brudgers 2y ago
      Bonds mature. In a few years you have to figure out where to park the billions. Land persists. In a hundred years the land will still be there growing grapes or grazing cattle. If you are hedging inflation, it’s not wealth. Don’t misunderstand me, I get where you are coming from. It is not the world of wealth. On the timeline of civilization capitalism is a recent innovation. Wealth is as old as civilization. Thinking about wealth with capitalist assumptions obscures wealth’s mechanisms.
      - Jeremy1026 2y ago
        You park them back into more bonds, more accurately, your "money guy" buys more bonds with them. Once you're into _illions on hand, you no longer have a direct hand on your money.
        2y ago