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I think privacy and security are orthogonal, and I'm not convinced that GrapheneOS does a lot more than LineageOS isn't already doing for me in the privacy aspe

I think privacy and security are orthogonal, and I'm not convinced that GrapheneOS does a lot more than LineageOS isn't already doing for me in the privacy aspect - some of graphene's touted features are geared towards being able to use google's services in a secure and moderately private manner, but I'd much rather not use them at all. Meanwhile, its security features complicate life a lot with no tangible benefit to me, as I don't have a threat model that makes it interesting. I find my own freedom to modify my device as easily and freely as possible (e.g. by properly rooting it) much more important than locking myself down in the name of security.

akimbostrawman 2y ago
>I'm not convinced that GrapheneOS does a lot more than LineageOS isn't already doing for me in the privacy aspect GrapheneOS has has many more feature that AOSP/LineageOS lack (https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features) and also 0 google connections unlike LineageOS (https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections) >some of graphene's touted features are geared towards being able to use google's services and they are 100% optional and opt-in by default
- kenmacd 2y ago
  I have to agree with mid-kid here. GrapheneOS is great for security, but some of that ends up directly in conflict with privacy. For example years ago I opened an issue around runtime-patching applications (https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/284 https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/284) and was told it didn't make sense in the OS. Putting aside the validity of arguments on either side of that issue, runtime patching allows me to very quickly excise large swaths of anti-privacy code across every app on my phone. If I was to switch to GrapheneOS I'd have to accept that I'd be giving up a fair amount of privacy for the added security.
  - akimbostrawman 2y ago
    the "private" way to remove ads and spyware from apps is not using them or revoking android.permission.INTERNET permission which GrapheneOS offers. not playing cat and mouse with the illusion of privacy.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
  "... and also 0 google connections unlike LineageOS" How about GrapheneOS connections? Zero or non-zero?
  - akimbostrawman 2y ago
    if you are trying to be snarky at least do the bare minimum research https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections "By default, GrapheneOS only makes remote connections to GrapheneOS services and the network provided DNS resolvers. There aren't any analytics/telemetry in GrapheneOS. The only information revealed to the GrapheneOS servers are the generic device model (such as Pixel 7 Pro) and OS version which are necessary for obtaining updates. The default connections provide the OS and apps with updates, set the system clock, check each network connection for internet connectivity, download a global database (does not vary based on location) with predicted satellite locations when using Location and obtain attestation chain signing keys for the hardware keystore needed for the hardware-based attestation feature."
foresto 2y ago
Using GrapheneOS also means: - Giving money to Google - Using hardware that is ultimately controlled by Google - Hardware replacement costs every time Google support runs out, instead of when the hardware stops working - Ongoing environmental impact from replacing your hardware every time Google support runs out It might make sense to accept those problems if your threat model can only be addressed by Graphene, but for the rest of us, something else might be a better (and more responsible) choice. At least for now. I would love to see non-Google devices with the features that GrapheneOS requires.
- serbuvlad 2y ago
  I don't think this is a very compelling argument. The main argument I can see against GrapheneOS on Pixel is that Pixels are just damn expensive phones. I don't mind giving Google, or any other company, my money. Especially not in exchange for something like hardware. What I object to is giving Google (or any other entity) my data.
- danielspace23 2y ago
  You can find used Pixels almost anywhere (I know because I'm using one), which saves you from giving money to Google. About software support, isn't that true for all devices and all manufacturers? Google guarantees 7 years of android updates and security patches, which is way better than most competitors, and Graphene adds in some years of extended support. Not to mention that once all support is over, if you don't care about the fact that firmware, kernel and vendor code will never be updated, you can still switch to LineageOS, which still has nightly builds even for the first Pixel with extremely updated security patches. The only valid point is that hardware is controlled by Google. There could be some sort of extremely-low-level backdoor or spyware, and we would never know. That's also true of each and every other CPU, modem or device with vendor-specific code.

akimbostrawman 2y ago

>I'm not convinced that GrapheneOS does a lot more than LineageOS isn't already doing for me in the privacy aspect GrapheneOS has has many more feature that AOSP/LineageOS lack (https://grapheneos.org/features https://grapheneos.org/features) and also 0 google connections unlike LineageOS (https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections) >some of graphene's touted features are geared towards being able to use google's services and they are 100% optional and opt-in by default

kenmacd 2y ago
I have to agree with mid-kid here. GrapheneOS is great for security, but some of that ends up directly in conflict with privacy. For example years ago I opened an issue around runtime-patching applications (https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/284 https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/284) and was told it didn't make sense in the OS. Putting aside the validity of arguments on either side of that issue, runtime patching allows me to very quickly excise large swaths of anti-privacy code across every app on my phone. If I was to switch to GrapheneOS I'd have to accept that I'd be giving up a fair amount of privacy for the added security.
- akimbostrawman 2y ago
  the "private" way to remove ads and spyware from apps is not using them or revoking android.permission.INTERNET permission which GrapheneOS offers. not playing cat and mouse with the illusion of privacy.
1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
"... and also 0 google connections unlike LineageOS" How about GrapheneOS connections? Zero or non-zero?
- akimbostrawman 2y ago
  if you are trying to be snarky at least do the bare minimum research https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections "By default, GrapheneOS only makes remote connections to GrapheneOS services and the network provided DNS resolvers. There aren't any analytics/telemetry in GrapheneOS. The only information revealed to the GrapheneOS servers are the generic device model (such as Pixel 7 Pro) and OS version which are necessary for obtaining updates. The default connections provide the OS and apps with updates, set the system clock, check each network connection for internet connectivity, download a global database (does not vary based on location) with predicted satellite locations when using Location and obtain attestation chain signing keys for the hardware keystore needed for the hardware-based attestation feature."

foresto 2y ago

Using GrapheneOS also means: - Giving money to Google - Using hardware that is ultimately controlled by Google - Hardware replacement costs every time Google support runs out, instead of when the hardware stops working - Ongoing environmental impact from replacing your hardware every time Google support runs out It might make sense to accept those problems if your threat model can only be addressed by Graphene, but for the rest of us, something else might be a better (and more responsible) choice. At least for now. I would love to see non-Google devices with the features that GrapheneOS requires.

serbuvlad 2y ago
I don't think this is a very compelling argument. The main argument I can see against GrapheneOS on Pixel is that Pixels are just damn expensive phones. I don't mind giving Google, or any other company, my money. Especially not in exchange for something like hardware. What I object to is giving Google (or any other entity) my data.
danielspace23 2y ago
You can find used Pixels almost anywhere (I know because I'm using one), which saves you from giving money to Google. About software support, isn't that true for all devices and all manufacturers? Google guarantees 7 years of android updates and security patches, which is way better than most competitors, and Graphene adds in some years of extended support. Not to mention that once all support is over, if you don't care about the fact that firmware, kernel and vendor code will never be updated, you can still switch to LineageOS, which still has nightly builds even for the first Pixel with extremely updated security patches. The only valid point is that hardware is controlled by Google. There could be some sort of extremely-low-level backdoor or spyware, and we would never know. That's also true of each and every other CPU, modem or device with vendor-specific code.