4 ms·

On the other hand, you are throwing away between half and two thirds of the energy used to refuel. (Edit: considering the energy expenditure from H2 production

by Rygian 2y ago

On the other hand, you are throwing away between half and two thirds of the energy used to refuel. (Edit: considering the energy expenditure from H2 production and the energy actually delivered to the car wheels.) And the infra to refuel my hydrogen car definitely does not exist today, anywhere in my first-world country. But I do have a wall socket. Using H2 to power cars is objectively "Uncompetitive": https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-mi...

b112 2y ago
So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Competitive? Every battery powered car costs far more than a gas car of equiv specs, and you never recoup that massive cost difference even after years, unless you drive immense differences. So I guess we should go back to gas, according to you? Of course, it is compeitive. And it is easy to refuel. Citing early adoption problems is not relevant.
- magicalhippo 2y ago
  > So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Not sure if the two[1][2] Hydrogen stations in all of Norway really qualifies. We had some more but they closed down. One closed after blowing up[3] due to a couple of bolts not being tightened[4] according to spec. [1]: https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik (temporarily closed due to maintenance and certification) [2]: https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn (opening soon) [3]: https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14582914 https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14... [4]: https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-til-hydrogen-eksplosjonen-i-sandvika/468765 https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-...
- dagw 2y ago
  Norway does not have H2 refuelling infrastructure. They had a tiny handful of station around Oslo a few years ago, but I think they're all closed down.
- 8fingerlouie 2y ago
  The Danish hydrogen refueling stations all closed down in 2023. Reasons were no/low hydrogen production and just about zero vehicles available. Orsted has also shut down their PtX project. Electric cars simply got too good too fast for Hydrogen to ever take off. Most EVs today has a similar range to HEVs, and already has the infrastructure in place, and doesn't have the energy loss that producing hydrogen has. Last i checked, it cost about 60 kWh to produce 1kg of hydrogen, which will give you about 100km range. For comparison an EV can do about 400km on the same energy.
  - magicalhippo 2y ago
    > For comparison an EV can do about 400km on the same energy. I checked prices here in Norway. My car has a 60 kWh battery and my car can indeed do about 400 km when full. Hydrogen here goes for about 195 NOK/kg at the pumps, so 4 kg would be 780 NOK. Even if I use an expensive super-charger to charge it up fully, at ~6.5 NOK/kWh it'll cost me 390 NOK. So half the price of H2. Tesla super-chargers are now available for regular plebs and they charge about 5.5 NOK/kWh, and there's at least one other that charges around 4.5 NOK/kWh. If I charge at home it's typically 0.8-1.2 NOK/kWh during summer, up to 2-3 NOK/kWh during winter. Since I have this option, I only use super-chargers a few times a year, when on longer trips.
    - 8fingerlouie 2y ago
      There is an ongoing argument that producing Hydrogen using "surplus" power would bring the effective costs down, but considering that we don't currently have a massive surplus of energy, it seems rather wasteful to design the power grid for a massive overproduction just to produce fuel for cars that would run equally well on a quarter of the energy. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for PtX. Some industries will certainly benefit or even require an alternative to gasoline/diesel, but for private transportation it's never going to compete with EVs in terms of cost.
- Rygian 2y ago
  I've already recouped the cost difference after 5 years of ownership of an EV, with similar driving patterns as before (or even less driving after the switch, thanks to increased teleworking). > Of course, it is compeitive. I state that hydrogen is not competitive for cars, and have provided a link that goes into a lot of factual considerations that explain why that is the case. The burden is now on you to disprove my reference with concrete facts.
- adriancr 2y ago
  > Every battery powered car costs far more than a gas car of equiv specs, and you never recoup that massive cost difference even after years, unless you drive immense differences. Have you seen recent prices? Where I am gas cars tend to both cost more upfront then EVs, have higher taxes, higher maintenance costs and be worse quality wise. A model 3 is very competitive in its class for example. I saved money choosing an EV.

by Rygian 2y ago

b112 2y ago

So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Competitive? Every battery powered car costs far more than a gas car of equiv specs, and you never recoup that massive cost difference even after years, unless you drive immense differences. So I guess we should go back to gas, according to you? Of course, it is compeitive. And it is easy to refuel. Citing early adoption problems is not relevant.

magicalhippo 2y ago
> So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Not sure if the two[1][2] Hydrogen stations in all of Norway really qualifies. We had some more but they closed down. One closed after blowing up[3] due to a couple of bolts not being tightened[4] according to spec. [1]: https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik (temporarily closed due to maintenance and certification) [2]: https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn (opening soon) [3]: https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14582914 https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14... [4]: https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-til-hydrogen-eksplosjonen-i-sandvika/468765 https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-...
dagw 2y ago
Norway does not have H2 refuelling infrastructure. They had a tiny handful of station around Oslo a few years ago, but I think they're all closed down.
8fingerlouie 2y ago
The Danish hydrogen refueling stations all closed down in 2023. Reasons were no/low hydrogen production and just about zero vehicles available. Orsted has also shut down their PtX project. Electric cars simply got too good too fast for Hydrogen to ever take off. Most EVs today has a similar range to HEVs, and already has the infrastructure in place, and doesn't have the energy loss that producing hydrogen has. Last i checked, it cost about 60 kWh to produce 1kg of hydrogen, which will give you about 100km range. For comparison an EV can do about 400km on the same energy.
- magicalhippo 2y ago
  > For comparison an EV can do about 400km on the same energy. I checked prices here in Norway. My car has a 60 kWh battery and my car can indeed do about 400 km when full. Hydrogen here goes for about 195 NOK/kg at the pumps, so 4 kg would be 780 NOK. Even if I use an expensive super-charger to charge it up fully, at ~6.5 NOK/kWh it'll cost me 390 NOK. So half the price of H2. Tesla super-chargers are now available for regular plebs and they charge about 5.5 NOK/kWh, and there's at least one other that charges around 4.5 NOK/kWh. If I charge at home it's typically 0.8-1.2 NOK/kWh during summer, up to 2-3 NOK/kWh during winter. Since I have this option, I only use super-chargers a few times a year, when on longer trips.
  - 8fingerlouie 2y ago
    There is an ongoing argument that producing Hydrogen using "surplus" power would bring the effective costs down, but considering that we don't currently have a massive surplus of energy, it seems rather wasteful to design the power grid for a massive overproduction just to produce fuel for cars that would run equally well on a quarter of the energy. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for PtX. Some industries will certainly benefit or even require an alternative to gasoline/diesel, but for private transportation it's never going to compete with EVs in terms of cost.
Rygian 2y ago
I've already recouped the cost difference after 5 years of ownership of an EV, with similar driving patterns as before (or even less driving after the switch, thanks to increased teleworking). > Of course, it is compeitive. I state that hydrogen is not competitive for cars, and have provided a link that goes into a lot of factual considerations that explain why that is the case. The burden is now on you to disprove my reference with concrete facts.
adriancr 2y ago
> Every battery powered car costs far more than a gas car of equiv specs, and you never recoup that massive cost difference even after years, unless you drive immense differences. Have you seen recent prices? Where I am gas cars tend to both cost more upfront then EVs, have higher taxes, higher maintenance costs and be worse quality wise. A model 3 is very competitive in its class for example. I saved money choosing an EV.