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Solid state batteries are the future of electric vehicle No, H2 is. No heavy battery pack, easily created from solar or wind, eg green sources, immediate 100%

by b112 2y ago

Solid state batteries are the future of electric vehicle No, H2 is. No heavy battery pack, easily created from solar or wind, eg green sources, immediate 100% refueling, low pollution and toxic waste, unlike battery creation and recycling, proven tech with multiple cars on the market, easily transportable via injection into Ng lines and extraction by filters at any point (infra already exists). Far more upside than battery tech.

chongli 2y ago
How do you store it in the car?
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  Toyota Mirai stores it in its internal hydrogen tanks. As any H2 bus or truck. Here are some drawings of what it looks like in the Mirai: https://www.jeccomposites.com/news/spotted-by-jec/toyoda-gosei-receives-toyotas-technology-development-award-for-development-of-high-pressure-hydrogen-tanks/ https://www.jeccomposites.com/news/spotted-by-jec/toyoda-gos....
- b112 2y ago
  Hyundai, Kia, and Toyota have had h2 vehicles on the market for years. It's a solved problem, go look at the tech in these cars.
Rygian 2y ago
On the other hand, you are throwing away between half and two thirds of the energy used to refuel. (Edit: considering the energy expenditure from H2 production and the energy actually delivered to the car wheels.) And the infra to refuel my hydrogen car definitely does not exist today, anywhere in my first-world country. But I do have a wall socket. Using H2 to power cars is objectively "Uncompetitive": https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-mi...
- b112 2y ago
  So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Competitive? Every battery powered car costs far more than a gas car of equiv specs, and you never recoup that massive cost difference even after years, unless you drive immense differences. So I guess we should go back to gas, according to you? Of course, it is compeitive. And it is easy to refuel. Citing early adoption problems is not relevant.
  - magicalhippo 2y ago
    > So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Not sure if the two[1][2] Hydrogen stations in all of Norway really qualifies. We had some more but they closed down. One closed after blowing up[3] due to a couple of bolts not being tightened[4] according to spec. [1]: https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik (temporarily closed due to maintenance and certification) [2]: https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn (opening soon) [3]: https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14582914 https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14... [4]: https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-til-hydrogen-eksplosjonen-i-sandvika/468765 https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-...
  - dagw 2y ago
    Norway does not have H2 refuelling infrastructure. They had a tiny handful of station around Oslo a few years ago, but I think they're all closed down.
  - 8fingerlouie 2y ago
    The Danish hydrogen refueling stations all closed down in 2023. Reasons were no/low hydrogen production and just about zero vehicles available. Orsted has also shut down their PtX project. Electric cars simply got too good too fast for Hydrogen to ever take off. Most EVs today has a similar range to HEVs, and already has the infrastructure in place, and doesn't have the energy loss that producing hydrogen has. Last i checked, it cost about 60 kWh to produce 1kg of hydrogen, which will give you about 100km range. For comparison an EV can do about 400km on the same energy.
adriancr 2y ago
H2 cars also have batteries, fuel cells don't generate enough power for decent acceleration.
- b112 2y ago
  Fuel cells actually do, it all depends upon their cost and size. If some h2 cars have batteries, for efficiency purposes, are you asserting that these are heavy, massive batteries designed to provide 100s of km of range? Or are they instead to buffer power, and tiny and miniscule compared to battery driven cars, and thus irrelevant in this discussion?
  - adriancr 2y ago
    One example: https://www.motor1.com/news/710232/2025-honda-crv-efcev-details/ https://www.motor1.com/news/710232/2025-honda-crv-efcev-deta... 17.7kwh battery. A base tesla model3 rwd has a 60kwh and range of 500-600km from that.
grecy 2y ago
> No, H2 is. I have driven around a good deal of the world (Alaska to Argentina, around Africa, around Australia and Europe now) EVERY town or village I have ever seen has some kind of electricity, even if just a solar panel or two for charging phones. I’ve never seen a single one with H2 infrastructure. There is no way the world is going to adopt something so specific and non-existent.
- b112 2y ago
  Not a single gas pump existed at one time, yet they are now everywhere, thus invalidating your premise.
  - grecy 2y ago
    > Not a single gas pump existed at one time, yet they are now everywhere Absolutely, and it took many decades to build them out. Are you willing to wait many decades to drive your H2 car to the stunning, remote or beautiful parts of Africa or South America? (Note, both of those have already been done, many times, by pure EVs) Note also the build-out of H2 stations is considerably harder than gas stations. > yet they are now everywhere Based on my personal experience, that is not true. On many occasions I've driven close to 1000km without a single gas station. Often villages that don't have a gas station do have electricity (and 3G internet now)
closewith 2y ago
The danger from H2 in vehicles by far eclipses the danger from lithium battery fires, so hydrogen vehicles are more likely to be banned than thrive.
jewayne 2y ago
Hydrogen, in practice, is almost always made from natural gas, because that's the cheapest way to make it. Whenever you hear somebody say "hydrogen vehicle", think "highly-refined natural gas vehicle".
- b112 2y ago
  I'm sorry, but this is a very foul argument. H2 can be made from green sources, hands down. Thus your argument is "We should never adopt H2 cars, because currently there isn't enough green H2". That's just plain silly. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 If there's anything on this list that isn't green, then it means you're substituting gas powered cars, for electric powered cars which are derived from non-green electricity. And worse, fossil fuel -> electricity -> transmission cost -> batteries+loss, is far less efficient than just "fossil fuel". And yes, it does work that way. For example, if I have 8 homes powered by green renewable energy, and I decide to start charging a car, where do you think the extra power comes from? Typically, more fossil fuel usage. You may say "Well, we can use solar panels at home!" or some other such thing, of which only a tiny fraction of people can. But the argument then becomes "We can add more renewable...", which is the precise same thing as saying "We can add more renewable to make H2" as well. Frankly, almost all battery cars on the roads are being charged by fossil fuel plants what would be shut down, if those cars were gas powered. But that's not the goal, is it? Instead, the goal is to shift our infra over to non-polluting end-points, like electric (battery OR h2 powered) cars, and then as we shift more, and more to green electric generation? Well, we're there! Which is why all this blather against H2 is just that. It's not about now. It's about the decades to come.
audunw 2y ago
Give it up. It’s over. HFCVs and BEVs got the same benefits and incentives in Norway. We even had several hydrogen furling stations around Oslo. (Though one blew up in a spectacular explosion) BEVs won. Hydrogen stations are closing down. What’s the breakthrough that’s going to save the hydrogen car? And do you really think that - if that breakthrough gets to market - BEV battery technology will stand completely still in that time? BEVs are already close to matching hydrogen on charging/fueling speed and range.. and will probably have a negligible weight impact in the end. There’s absolutely no way you’re going to convince anyone who has gotten an EV charger installed in their garage to switch to a hydrogen car. What.. would you switch to a phone that you had to go to a phone fueling station to keep it running? Ridiculous. Hydrogen doesn’t stand a chance now because BEVs is reducing its potential niche to such a small size that hydrogen gas stations don’t really have a chance to reach a critical market size. They won’t ever be profitable. And no, don’t get started about those without a garage. There are already a whole bunch of solution for curb side charging. I know the US is a bit behind on this. But it’s far easier to build out that kind of infrastructure than hydrogen stations. In one case you just need an electrician. In the other you need highly trained installers that know how to tighten every single bolt to the exact correct torque so no hydrogen gas escapes. (Yes that’s a real example, it was the solution found after investigating the hydrogen gas station explosion near Oslo.. just a bolt that was eeeever so slightly loose… hydrogen will escape through the tiniest of cracks) Hydrogen for long range trucks, ships and planes could be a different matter. Specialised fixed routes with gas stations set up for those routes specifically, with a well known demand in advance.

by b112 2y ago

chongli 2y ago

How do you store it in the car?

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
Toyota Mirai stores it in its internal hydrogen tanks. As any H2 bus or truck. Here are some drawings of what it looks like in the Mirai: https://www.jeccomposites.com/news/spotted-by-jec/toyoda-gosei-receives-toyotas-technology-development-award-for-development-of-high-pressure-hydrogen-tanks/ https://www.jeccomposites.com/news/spotted-by-jec/toyoda-gos....
b112 2y ago
Hyundai, Kia, and Toyota have had h2 vehicles on the market for years. It's a solved problem, go look at the tech in these cars.

Rygian 2y ago

On the other hand, you are throwing away between half and two thirds of the energy used to refuel. (Edit: considering the energy expenditure from H2 production and the energy actually delivered to the car wheels.) And the infra to refuel my hydrogen car definitely does not exist today, anywhere in my first-world country. But I do have a wall socket. Using H2 to power cars is objectively "Uncompetitive": https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-michael-liebreich https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hydrogen-ladder-version-50-mi...

b112 2y ago
So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Competitive? Every battery powered car costs far more than a gas car of equiv specs, and you never recoup that massive cost difference even after years, unless you drive immense differences. So I guess we should go back to gas, according to you? Of course, it is compeitive. And it is easy to refuel. Citing early adoption problems is not relevant.
- magicalhippo 2y ago
  > So Japan, Norway, and parts of California are not the 1st world? Not sure if the two[1][2] Hydrogen stations in all of Norway really qualifies. We had some more but they closed down. One closed after blowing up[3] due to a couple of bolts not being tightened[4] according to spec. [1]: https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik https://www.hynion.com/no/hovik (temporarily closed due to maintenance and certification) [2]: https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn https://www.hynion.com/no/porsgrunn (opening soon) [3]: https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14582914 https://www.nrk.no/norge/eksplosjon-ved-hydrogenstasjon-1.14... [4]: https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-til-hydrogen-eksplosjonen-i-sandvika/468765 https://www.tu.no/artikler/slik-startet-lekkasjen-som-forte-...
- dagw 2y ago
  Norway does not have H2 refuelling infrastructure. They had a tiny handful of station around Oslo a few years ago, but I think they're all closed down.
- 8fingerlouie 2y ago
  The Danish hydrogen refueling stations all closed down in 2023. Reasons were no/low hydrogen production and just about zero vehicles available. Orsted has also shut down their PtX project. Electric cars simply got too good too fast for Hydrogen to ever take off. Most EVs today has a similar range to HEVs, and already has the infrastructure in place, and doesn't have the energy loss that producing hydrogen has. Last i checked, it cost about 60 kWh to produce 1kg of hydrogen, which will give you about 100km range. For comparison an EV can do about 400km on the same energy.

adriancr 2y ago

H2 cars also have batteries, fuel cells don't generate enough power for decent acceleration.

b112 2y ago
Fuel cells actually do, it all depends upon their cost and size. If some h2 cars have batteries, for efficiency purposes, are you asserting that these are heavy, massive batteries designed to provide 100s of km of range? Or are they instead to buffer power, and tiny and miniscule compared to battery driven cars, and thus irrelevant in this discussion?
- adriancr 2y ago
  One example: https://www.motor1.com/news/710232/2025-honda-crv-efcev-details/ https://www.motor1.com/news/710232/2025-honda-crv-efcev-deta... 17.7kwh battery. A base tesla model3 rwd has a 60kwh and range of 500-600km from that.

grecy 2y ago

> No, H2 is. I have driven around a good deal of the world (Alaska to Argentina, around Africa, around Australia and Europe now) EVERY town or village I have ever seen has some kind of electricity, even if just a solar panel or two for charging phones. I’ve never seen a single one with H2 infrastructure. There is no way the world is going to adopt something so specific and non-existent.

b112 2y ago
Not a single gas pump existed at one time, yet they are now everywhere, thus invalidating your premise.
- grecy 2y ago
  > Not a single gas pump existed at one time, yet they are now everywhere Absolutely, and it took many decades to build them out. Are you willing to wait many decades to drive your H2 car to the stunning, remote or beautiful parts of Africa or South America? (Note, both of those have already been done, many times, by pure EVs) Note also the build-out of H2 stations is considerably harder than gas stations. > yet they are now everywhere Based on my personal experience, that is not true. On many occasions I've driven close to 1000km without a single gas station. Often villages that don't have a gas station do have electricity (and 3G internet now)

closewith 2y ago

The danger from H2 in vehicles by far eclipses the danger from lithium battery fires, so hydrogen vehicles are more likely to be banned than thrive.

jewayne 2y ago

Hydrogen, in practice, is almost always made from natural gas, because that's the cheapest way to make it. Whenever you hear somebody say "hydrogen vehicle", think "highly-refined natural gas vehicle".

b112 2y ago
I'm sorry, but this is a very foul argument. H2 can be made from green sources, hands down. Thus your argument is "We should never adopt H2 cars, because currently there isn't enough green H2". That's just plain silly. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 If there's anything on this list that isn't green, then it means you're substituting gas powered cars, for electric powered cars which are derived from non-green electricity. And worse, fossil fuel -> electricity -> transmission cost -> batteries+loss, is far less efficient than just "fossil fuel". And yes, it does work that way. For example, if I have 8 homes powered by green renewable energy, and I decide to start charging a car, where do you think the extra power comes from? Typically, more fossil fuel usage. You may say "Well, we can use solar panels at home!" or some other such thing, of which only a tiny fraction of people can. But the argument then becomes "We can add more renewable...", which is the precise same thing as saying "We can add more renewable to make H2" as well. Frankly, almost all battery cars on the roads are being charged by fossil fuel plants what would be shut down, if those cars were gas powered. But that's not the goal, is it? Instead, the goal is to shift our infra over to non-polluting end-points, like electric (battery OR h2 powered) cars, and then as we shift more, and more to green electric generation? Well, we're there! Which is why all this blather against H2 is just that. It's not about now. It's about the decades to come.

audunw 2y ago

Give it up. It’s over. HFCVs and BEVs got the same benefits and incentives in Norway. We even had several hydrogen furling stations around Oslo. (Though one blew up in a spectacular explosion) BEVs won. Hydrogen stations are closing down. What’s the breakthrough that’s going to save the hydrogen car? And do you really think that - if that breakthrough gets to market - BEV battery technology will stand completely still in that time? BEVs are already close to matching hydrogen on charging/fueling speed and range.. and will probably have a negligible weight impact in the end. There’s absolutely no way you’re going to convince anyone who has gotten an EV charger installed in their garage to switch to a hydrogen car. What.. would you switch to a phone that you had to go to a phone fueling station to keep it running? Ridiculous. Hydrogen doesn’t stand a chance now because BEVs is reducing its potential niche to such a small size that hydrogen gas stations don’t really have a chance to reach a critical market size. They won’t ever be profitable. And no, don’t get started about those without a garage. There are already a whole bunch of solution for curb side charging. I know the US is a bit behind on this. But it’s far easier to build out that kind of infrastructure than hydrogen stations. In one case you just need an electrician. In the other you need highly trained installers that know how to tighten every single bolt to the exact correct torque so no hydrogen gas escapes. (Yes that’s a real example, it was the solution found after investigating the hydrogen gas station explosion near Oslo.. just a bolt that was eeeever so slightly loose… hydrogen will escape through the tiniest of cracks) Hydrogen for long range trucks, ships and planes could be a different matter. Specialised fixed routes with gas stations set up for those routes specifically, with a well known demand in advance.