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You’re making it sound easier and more certain than it really is. “Engaging with local government” is very often ineffective. Case in point: our municipal gover

by ein0p 2y ago

You’re making it sound easier and more certain than it really is. “Engaging with local government” is very often ineffective. Case in point: our municipal government bought a hotel right across the road from a high school and converted it for housing the homeless. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem, but in this case there are no prerequisites, and sex offenders and drug addicts are OK, right next to the school. There was a “public comment” meeting, lots of people (myself included) came and protested, only to be told in the end: “fuck off, the decision has already been made and there’s no recourse”. Which is to say, complaining seems to only work if you can play different parts of the government against one another, or if they’re already looking for a justification to do what you’re proposing. If that is not the case, you’re SOL.

jfengel 2y ago
There's a reason they say "you can't fight city hall"
tptacek 2y ago
Public comment isn't engagement. I know hearing that will piss you off. But apart from putting up giant numbers, numbers way out of norm of what contentious issues pull into meetings, it's just about the least effective way to influence your local government. Everybody knows the score: public comment is canvassed before the meeting, and (again, unless you're putting up huge numbers) represents attempts by tiny minorities of the community to override the will of the voters, by paying more attention than ordinary voters and showing up on a random Tuesday night to complain. The irony is, there are plenty of ways for tiny minorities to exert outsized influence in most communities. Here's a really basic one: instead of showing up and giving tedious public comment, reach out directly to your council members (or, better yet, the relevant commissioners, if they exist, who probably never get any kind of public comment) and do private comment. That's not much more effective than public comment, but it is more effective. There are better things to do than that! (Having said all this: I'm glad your muni made the decision it did. The high schoolers will be fine. Building housing for homeless people is good for the community. Every time a muni does it, people come out of hte woodwork with stories about sex offenders and drug addicts. Sounds like your council has its head screwed on right; good for them.)
- ein0p 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 2y ago
    If you're giving public comments saying things like "government sponsored access to hard drugs", it's really no wonder public comment isn't working out for you. If you're not known to be in a position to fund runs for competitive candidates in the next cycle (or to fund existing electeds you know to be on your side on this stuff), you should re-read Dale Carnegie before you attempt engaging again. I'm not snarking. You would not believe how much more effective it is just to not be another hyperbolic aggrieved person.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - tptacek 2y ago
        As I think you can surmise from my first response to your comment, I don't agree at all with your premise. We just did the exact same thing your muni did, a block and a half from a high school and a block and a half from my house. I'm thrilled. But this very narrow policy dispute isn't interesting. You perceive my comment as a dunk on you, but I'm in fact trying to arm you to more effective work against my own policy interests, because I hate cynicism even more than I hate NIMBYism.
        ein0p 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - dang 2y ago
        Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
saagarjha 2y ago
Would you be as concerned about the sex offenders and drug addicts if they were as well off as you? In many cases they are richer. Do you think they have "prerequisites" when trying to buy their third house?
- ein0p 2y ago
  [flagged]

by ein0p 2y ago

jfengel 2y ago

There's a reason they say "you can't fight city hall"

tptacek 2y ago

Public comment isn't engagement. I know hearing that will piss you off. But apart from putting up giant numbers, numbers way out of norm of what contentious issues pull into meetings, it's just about the least effective way to influence your local government. Everybody knows the score: public comment is canvassed before the meeting, and (again, unless you're putting up huge numbers) represents attempts by tiny minorities of the community to override the will of the voters, by paying more attention than ordinary voters and showing up on a random Tuesday night to complain. The irony is, there are plenty of ways for tiny minorities to exert outsized influence in most communities. Here's a really basic one: instead of showing up and giving tedious public comment, reach out directly to your council members (or, better yet, the relevant commissioners, if they exist, who probably never get any kind of public comment) and do private comment. That's not much more effective than public comment, but it is more effective. There are better things to do than that! (Having said all this: I'm glad your muni made the decision it did. The high schoolers will be fine. Building housing for homeless people is good for the community. Every time a muni does it, people come out of hte woodwork with stories about sex offenders and drug addicts. Sounds like your council has its head screwed on right; good for them.)

ein0p 2y ago
[flagged]
- tptacek 2y ago
  If you're giving public comments saying things like "government sponsored access to hard drugs", it's really no wonder public comment isn't working out for you. If you're not known to be in a position to fund runs for competitive candidates in the next cycle (or to fund existing electeds you know to be on your side on this stuff), you should re-read Dale Carnegie before you attempt engaging again. I'm not snarking. You would not believe how much more effective it is just to not be another hyperbolic aggrieved person.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - tptacek 2y ago
      As I think you can surmise from my first response to your comment, I don't agree at all with your premise. We just did the exact same thing your muni did, a block and a half from a high school and a block and a half from my house. I'm thrilled. But this very narrow policy dispute isn't interesting. You perceive my comment as a dunk on you, but I'm in fact trying to arm you to more effective work against my own policy interests, because I hate cynicism even more than I hate NIMBYism.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - dang 2y ago
      Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

saagarjha 2y ago

Would you be as concerned about the sex offenders and drug addicts if they were as well off as you? In many cases they are richer. Do you think they have "prerequisites" when trying to buy their third house?

ein0p 2y ago
[flagged]