5 ms·

I don't live or work in any of those places, but I've been ignoring work emails and calls after hours for a long time. Helps that 1) I don't have a work phone,

I don't live or work in any of those places, but I've been ignoring work emails and calls after hours for a long time. Helps that 1) I don't have a work phone, 2) apps that my company uses on my personal phone, and 3) never log into the company network or services on my own laptop. In the few instances when I was called out about it, I asked Could the message/call have waited until the following morning/Monday? The answer was almost always Yes.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
This does not stop an employer from potentially disciplining or firing you. Laws do, because they bind. Implicit contracts and hope are not a strategy, with regards to worker rights and protections.
- Bostonian 2y ago
  That's unrealistic. Managers who are unhappy with workers ignoring emails will find a reason to fire them, not promote them, or give them a smaller bonus.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    With that logic you could throw out any labor protection law. Let's keep it constructive.
  - ehnto 2y ago
    It sets the rules, workers will have to fight for it to be followed still. But sociopathic management now knows workers have a foot to stand on in court, enterprises will be inclined to make it policy. Less sociopathic management might realise they were being assholes and dial it back a bit. Some managers genuinely don't realise that the current "norm" is not fair, since they are deep in the zeitgeist. Countless exceptions sure but there's no denying this is a good attempt at change.
- rufus_foreman 2y ago
  What stops my employer from potentially disciplining or firing me is first of all, that I am good at what I do, and second that I negotiate from a position of strength. If my employer wants me to work off hours, I mean maybe I will, if I don't have anything going on, and I'll take some time the next day where I won't work as compensation for doing that, I won't ask permission. If I do have something going on, I'll say, "Can't do that. Have something going on". They're fine with it. They're reasonable people. Why would I work for unreasonable people? I would work for someone else. If they actually did fire me? OK, maybe I look for another job, but probably I'm retired. I saved my money. I negotiate from a position of strength.
  - sfpotter 2y ago
    Sounds like you live in a world of incredible privilege. Not everyone is so lucky.
    - StressedDev 2y ago
      Nope - A large portion of the world works like this. If you work for a place which demands you work all of the time, you either work for an abusive employer, or you get paid a lot of money to be at their beck and call. If the employer is abusive, find another job. If you are paid a large salary to be a slave to company, consider finding a job with a better work/life balance.
      - sfpotter 2y ago
        I think you have a poor understanding of what most of the world looks like. Most people on the planet exist in tenuous circumstances which do not allow them to simply go find another job, let alone an employer that isn't abusive, etc. The luxury of being able to worry about these things and take meaningful action to achieve them is truly a recent phenomenon that is not widely distributed.
      - kergonath 2y ago
        > Nope - A large portion of the world works like this. If you work for a place which demands you work all of the time, you either work for an abusive employer, or you get paid a lot of money to be at their beck and call. If you mean that most employers are abusive then yes. That’s why there are laws like this one. Non-abusive employers can ignore it because they were already doing the right thing.
- jay_kyburz 2y ago
  I'm no lawyer, but I am an Australian and know the hoops you need to jump through in order to fire a full time employee. An employer who is prepared to put in writing that you will be fired for not working unpaid overtime (responding to email) is in for bad time.
- ivann 2y ago
  Wait, can an employer fire you even if you didn't make a fault? What country are you in?
  - NeoTar 2y ago
    Probably the US - it's scary over there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      Our work culture is a strong part of why the US is so economically dominant. Reap what you sow “I work to live not live to work” crowd. Your destiny is to be further economically colonized by the “I live to work” crowd.
      - TremendousJudge 2y ago
        Or maybe it was all the military interventions that punished anybody who ever dared to question that domination
      - ivann 2y ago
        This strike me as a very naive view of the world.
        Der_Einzige 2y ago
        Look at how dominant the USA is compared to the europeans who love to make fun of us for working so hard. The USA is about to be flung into another golden century due to its dominance in GenAI. Frogs/the EU will be too busy eating caiver served by rude waiters to realize that huggingface and mistral are all they have to compete with us. Eventually they won't be able to afford the caiver anymore. You laugh, but look at how the UK economy is doing. That's the future of Europe. Yeah it sucks to have a bad wlb work culture, but the alternative is losing what makes America so awesome.
StressedDev 2y ago
Same here. The fact is no one can be on call 24/7. People need downtime. I have never worked with a manager who demanded people be contactable at any time. I have been on call but that makes sense. Note that on a good team, being on call is easy because the service rarely goes down.
patrick451 2y ago
I have paging app installed my on phone, and that's it. If it is really, truly urgent they will page me. I have never been paged. Nobody has ever complained.
Aachen 2y ago
> Helps that 1) I don't have a work phone, I have a work phone, but that's for making calls and doing other mobile stuff during work hours. Nobody expects me to use it outside of those hours, that's not really related to having one. Do your colleagues only get one when they're expected to be online 24/7?
space_oddity 2y ago
You've set some healthy boundaries when it comes to work-life balance, which is great!
- 0xEF 2y ago
  This is important, right here; healthy boundaries. The best time to set them up is right at the start, too. I've had 3 employers that privided me with a phone and laptop because the jobs involved travel, but I made very clear that work hours are work hours, so when I am off the clock, so are those devices. The respected that each time because the expectations were negotiated upfront, instead of waiting for one party to get ticked off and trying to pivot from that.
poincaredisk 2y ago
I don't get it. How could they even expect you to read work emails outside of work hours? Especially since you don't have a company phone. Reading company emails on a private phone sounds like a huge security breach, and may not even be legal. And if anyone from work (who is not also my friend asking to hang up) calls me on my private phone, I'm reporting them.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

This does not stop an employer from potentially disciplining or firing you. Laws do, because they bind. Implicit contracts and hope are not a strategy, with regards to worker rights and protections.

Bostonian 2y ago
That's unrealistic. Managers who are unhappy with workers ignoring emails will find a reason to fire them, not promote them, or give them a smaller bonus.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  With that logic you could throw out any labor protection law. Let's keep it constructive.
- ehnto 2y ago
  It sets the rules, workers will have to fight for it to be followed still. But sociopathic management now knows workers have a foot to stand on in court, enterprises will be inclined to make it policy. Less sociopathic management might realise they were being assholes and dial it back a bit. Some managers genuinely don't realise that the current "norm" is not fair, since they are deep in the zeitgeist. Countless exceptions sure but there's no denying this is a good attempt at change.
rufus_foreman 2y ago
What stops my employer from potentially disciplining or firing me is first of all, that I am good at what I do, and second that I negotiate from a position of strength. If my employer wants me to work off hours, I mean maybe I will, if I don't have anything going on, and I'll take some time the next day where I won't work as compensation for doing that, I won't ask permission. If I do have something going on, I'll say, "Can't do that. Have something going on". They're fine with it. They're reasonable people. Why would I work for unreasonable people? I would work for someone else. If they actually did fire me? OK, maybe I look for another job, but probably I'm retired. I saved my money. I negotiate from a position of strength.
- sfpotter 2y ago
  Sounds like you live in a world of incredible privilege. Not everyone is so lucky.
  - StressedDev 2y ago
    Nope - A large portion of the world works like this. If you work for a place which demands you work all of the time, you either work for an abusive employer, or you get paid a lot of money to be at their beck and call. If the employer is abusive, find another job. If you are paid a large salary to be a slave to company, consider finding a job with a better work/life balance.
    - sfpotter 2y ago
      I think you have a poor understanding of what most of the world looks like. Most people on the planet exist in tenuous circumstances which do not allow them to simply go find another job, let alone an employer that isn't abusive, etc. The luxury of being able to worry about these things and take meaningful action to achieve them is truly a recent phenomenon that is not widely distributed.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      > Nope - A large portion of the world works like this. If you work for a place which demands you work all of the time, you either work for an abusive employer, or you get paid a lot of money to be at their beck and call. If you mean that most employers are abusive then yes. That’s why there are laws like this one. Non-abusive employers can ignore it because they were already doing the right thing.
jay_kyburz 2y ago
I'm no lawyer, but I am an Australian and know the hoops you need to jump through in order to fire a full time employee. An employer who is prepared to put in writing that you will be fired for not working unpaid overtime (responding to email) is in for bad time.
ivann 2y ago
Wait, can an employer fire you even if you didn't make a fault? What country are you in?
- NeoTar 2y ago
  Probably the US - it's scary over there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    Our work culture is a strong part of why the US is so economically dominant. Reap what you sow “I work to live not live to work” crowd. Your destiny is to be further economically colonized by the “I live to work” crowd.
    - TremendousJudge 2y ago
      Or maybe it was all the military interventions that punished anybody who ever dared to question that domination
    - ivann 2y ago
      This strike me as a very naive view of the world.
      - Der_Einzige 2y ago
        Look at how dominant the USA is compared to the europeans who love to make fun of us for working so hard. The USA is about to be flung into another golden century due to its dominance in GenAI. Frogs/the EU will be too busy eating caiver served by rude waiters to realize that huggingface and mistral are all they have to compete with us. Eventually they won't be able to afford the caiver anymore. You laugh, but look at how the UK economy is doing. That's the future of Europe. Yeah it sucks to have a bad wlb work culture, but the alternative is losing what makes America so awesome.

StressedDev 2y ago

Same here. The fact is no one can be on call 24/7. People need downtime. I have never worked with a manager who demanded people be contactable at any time. I have been on call but that makes sense. Note that on a good team, being on call is easy because the service rarely goes down.

patrick451 2y ago

I have paging app installed my on phone, and that's it. If it is really, truly urgent they will page me. I have never been paged. Nobody has ever complained.

Aachen 2y ago

> Helps that 1) I don't have a work phone, I have a work phone, but that's for making calls and doing other mobile stuff during work hours. Nobody expects me to use it outside of those hours, that's not really related to having one. Do your colleagues only get one when they're expected to be online 24/7?

space_oddity 2y ago

You've set some healthy boundaries when it comes to work-life balance, which is great!

0xEF 2y ago
This is important, right here; healthy boundaries. The best time to set them up is right at the start, too. I've had 3 employers that privided me with a phone and laptop because the jobs involved travel, but I made very clear that work hours are work hours, so when I am off the clock, so are those devices. The respected that each time because the expectations were negotiated upfront, instead of waiting for one party to get ticked off and trying to pivot from that.

poincaredisk 2y ago

I don't get it. How could they even expect you to read work emails outside of work hours? Especially since you don't have a company phone. Reading company emails on a private phone sounds like a huge security breach, and may not even be legal. And if anyone from work (who is not also my friend asking to hang up) calls me on my private phone, I'm reporting them.