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It's amazing that this seems surprising to people after COVID. Next up: * Air purifiers in schools cut parent's sick days too (not just "I need to care for my

It's amazing that this seems surprising to people after COVID. Next up: * Air purifiers in schools cut parent's sick days too (not just "I need to care for my kid" days - "parent is sick" and "childless coworker of parent is sick" sick days) * Air purifiers in strategic locations (high density offices, public transit, schools, ...) cut sick days across the population. I think this will be our generations "realizing that washing your hands before surgery makes patients die less", and it's quite embarrassing that with all the knowledge about viral transmission we couldn't figure this out before the pandemic, and even more embarrassing that we couldn't figure it out immediately after we tested many of these things at a large scale.

mdp2021 2y ago
> I think this will be our generations "realizing that washing your hands before surgery makes patients die less" Surely not the same thing as Semmelweis. We want to destroy microbes (and viruses) in specific contexts, not indiscriminately.
- pjc50 2y ago
  > We want to destroy microbes (and viruses) in specific contexts, not indiscriminately. Apart from the known useful ones, like gut flora: no, we really do want to destroy them indiscriminantly. We bleach surfaces to do this, we can bleach air too.
  - jMyles 2y ago
    Let's be a little more cautious and observant in our approach to antimicrobial stewardship. Yes, we can bleach surfaces, but pathogens (in relatively rapid terms) develop resistance [0]. Yes, we can reduce bacteria at factory farms to small numbers with the indiscriminate use of antibiotics in animal feed, but it's easy to observe that this trains pathogens to avoid our most powerful chemical antibiotics. And so it is with fomites, respiratory pathogens, STDs, and probably even with measures to control arboviruses. We live in an ecological balance, and discretion is the better part of valor with regard to ensuring that this ecology becomes more likely to nurture increasingly better health outcomes. 0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/
    - immibis 2y ago
      Humans actually live way outside of the ecological balance point. We can move the balance point, or the ecology will return us to that balance point.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
JoshTriplett 2y ago
The challenge isn't just "figuring it out"; the challenge is also actually putting it in place even knowing that. Because, astonishingly, there seem to be actual people against the concept of air purification. (Just read through this comments section.) There were doctors and surgeons against the concept of handwashing, too, but fortunately they lost. Unfortunately, it took a long time for them to lose, and a lot of people died as a result. How do we skip that part?
- mdp2021 2y ago
  > air purification «Air purification» interpreted as "destroying all life in the air you breathe"? That would be an extraordinary claim and you would have to prove that it is a good idea. ("Air purification" can be interpreted to be about chemical and mechanical qualities, before the consideration of the living entities in the air.)
  - jstummbillig 2y ago
    Let's go with "air purification" as in "what air purifiers are supposed to effect, as observed in the study being discussed in this thread"
    - mdp2021 2y ago
      > what air purifiers are supposed to effect, as observed in the study Which would be? Have you seen details in the submitted article? I suppose this is the study (but the page is bouncing me): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844024067550 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240584402... I have an air purifier working not two meters from me - and it is an HEPA filter with forced ventilation. Not an "air disinfectant".
      - jstummbillig 2y ago
        Per this study, the number of sick days.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
The medical establishment for years told everyone that viruses were spread by contact and not by air.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Hand washing mania throughout the respiratory virus pandemic was comical tho.

mdp2021 2y ago

> I think this will be our generations "realizing that washing your hands before surgery makes patients die less" Surely not the same thing as Semmelweis. We want to destroy microbes (and viruses) in specific contexts, not indiscriminately.

pjc50 2y ago
> We want to destroy microbes (and viruses) in specific contexts, not indiscriminately. Apart from the known useful ones, like gut flora: no, we really do want to destroy them indiscriminantly. We bleach surfaces to do this, we can bleach air too.
- jMyles 2y ago
  Let's be a little more cautious and observant in our approach to antimicrobial stewardship. Yes, we can bleach surfaces, but pathogens (in relatively rapid terms) develop resistance [0]. Yes, we can reduce bacteria at factory farms to small numbers with the indiscriminate use of antibiotics in animal feed, but it's easy to observe that this trains pathogens to avoid our most powerful chemical antibiotics. And so it is with fomites, respiratory pathogens, STDs, and probably even with measures to control arboviruses. We live in an ecological balance, and discretion is the better part of valor with regard to ensuring that this ecology becomes more likely to nurture increasingly better health outcomes. 0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464077/
  - immibis 2y ago
    Humans actually live way outside of the ecological balance point. We can move the balance point, or the ecology will return us to that balance point.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

JoshTriplett 2y ago

The challenge isn't just "figuring it out"; the challenge is also actually putting it in place even knowing that. Because, astonishingly, there seem to be actual people against the concept of air purification. (Just read through this comments section.) There were doctors and surgeons against the concept of handwashing, too, but fortunately they lost. Unfortunately, it took a long time for them to lose, and a lot of people died as a result. How do we skip that part?

mdp2021 2y ago
> air purification «Air purification» interpreted as "destroying all life in the air you breathe"? That would be an extraordinary claim and you would have to prove that it is a good idea. ("Air purification" can be interpreted to be about chemical and mechanical qualities, before the consideration of the living entities in the air.)
- jstummbillig 2y ago
  Let's go with "air purification" as in "what air purifiers are supposed to effect, as observed in the study being discussed in this thread"
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    > what air purifiers are supposed to effect, as observed in the study Which would be? Have you seen details in the submitted article? I suppose this is the study (but the page is bouncing me): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844024067550 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240584402... I have an air purifier working not two meters from me - and it is an HEPA filter with forced ventilation. Not an "air disinfectant".
    - jstummbillig 2y ago
      Per this study, the number of sick days.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

The medical establishment for years told everyone that viruses were spread by contact and not by air.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

Hand washing mania throughout the respiratory virus pandemic was comical tho.