8 ms·

> If you are directly aiding and abetting without any plausible attempt to minimize bad actors from using your service isn't this the definition of "criminal l

> If you are directly aiding and abetting without any plausible attempt to minimize bad actors from using your service isn't this the definition of "criminal lawyer"?

alephnerd 2y ago
If you are a criminal lawyer who is providing defense, that is acceptable because everyone is entitled to to a fair trial and defense. If you are a criminal lawyer who is directly abetting in criminal behavior (eg. a Saul Goodman type) you absolutely will lose your Bar License and open yourself up to criminal penalties. If you are a criminal lawyer who is in a situation where your client wants you to abet their criminal behavior, then you are expected to drop the client and potentially notify law enforcement.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  There was a recent gang related case in Georgia where several defense lawyers were charged for being a little too involved.
  - MertsA 2y ago
    Are you talking about Brian Steel? He was held in contempt because he refused to name his source that informed him of some misconduct by the judge (ex parte communication with a witness). That's hardly relevant here, the client wasn't involved at all as far as anyone knows. https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/comments/1dd32ji/brian_steele_young_thugs_lawyer_held_in_criminal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/comments/1dd32ji/brian_s...
    - themaninthedark 2y ago
      It was records and communication that the lawyer made on behalf of his client. More interesting is why the judge and prosecutors have not been referred to the bar for their illegal actions.
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  > If you are a criminal lawyer who is directly abetting in criminal behavior Not a lawyer myself but I believe this is not a correct representation of the issue. A lawyer abetting in criminal behaviour is committing a crime, but the crime is not offering his services to criminals, which is completely legal. When offering their services to criminals law firm or individual lawyers in most cases are not required to report crimes they have been made aware of under the attorney-client privilege and are not required to ask to minimize bad actors from using their services. In short: unless they are committing crimes themselves, criminal lawyers are not required to stay clear from criminals, actually, usually the opposite is true. Again, presumption of innocence do exists.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Yep. Your explaination is basically what I was getting at In this case, Telegram showed bad faith moderation. They are not a lawyer, and don't operate with the same constraints.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  … client wants you to abet their criminal behavior, then you are expected to drop the client and potentially notify law enforcement. When would a lawyer be allowed to snitch on their client?
  - MertsA 2y ago
    That in particular would fall under the crime-fraud exception so there's no attorney client privilege.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tialaramex 2y ago
TV drama tends to give people the wrong idea. Your lawyers aren't allowed to aid you with doing any crimes, they're just advocates.
- coliveira 2y ago
  This happens in real life all the time, just look at Trump's lawyer.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    And they get suspended or disbarred as well as referred to LE.
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  Please do not assume When in doubt, ask. I was replying to any plausible attempt to minimize bad actors from using your service I mentioned criminal lawyers because their job is literally to "offer their services to criminals or to people accused of being criminals" and they have no obligation whatsoever to minimize bad actors from using your service, in fact bad actors are usually their regular clientele and they are free to attract as many criminals as they like in any legal way they like. Helping a criminal to commit a crime it's an entirely different thing and anyway it must be proved in a court, it's not something that can be assumed on the basis of allegations (their clients are criminal, so they must be criminal too). That's why in that famous TV drama Jessy Pinkam says "You dont want a criminal lawyer, you want a Criminal. Lawyer.". The premise of this story is that Telegram offers a service which is very similar to safe deposit boxes, the bank it's not supposed to know what you keep in there hence they are not held responsible if they are used for illegal activities. In other words most of the times people do not know and are not required to know if they are dealing with criminals, but, even if they did, there are no legal reasons to avoid offering them your services other than to avoid problems and/or on moral grounds (which are perfectly understandable motives, but are still not a requirement to operate a business). Take bars, diners, restaurants, gas stations or hospitals, are they supposed to deny their services? And how would they exactly should take actions to minimize bad actors from using your service? If someone goes to a restaurant and talks about committing a crime, is the owner abetting the crime? I guess probably not, unless it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he actually is. It doesn't matter if it's true or false it only matters what the justice system can prove.

> If you are directly aiding and abetting without any plausible attempt to minimize bad actors from using your service isn't this the definition of "criminal lawyer"?

alephnerd 2y ago

If you are a criminal lawyer who is providing defense, that is acceptable because everyone is entitled to to a fair trial and defense. If you are a criminal lawyer who is directly abetting in criminal behavior (eg. a Saul Goodman type) you absolutely will lose your Bar License and open yourself up to criminal penalties. If you are a criminal lawyer who is in a situation where your client wants you to abet their criminal behavior, then you are expected to drop the client and potentially notify law enforcement.

throwaway48476 2y ago
There was a recent gang related case in Georgia where several defense lawyers were charged for being a little too involved.
- MertsA 2y ago
  Are you talking about Brian Steel? He was held in contempt because he refused to name his source that informed him of some misconduct by the judge (ex parte communication with a witness). That's hardly relevant here, the client wasn't involved at all as far as anyone knows. https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/comments/1dd32ji/brian_steele_young_thugs_lawyer_held_in_criminal/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/comments/1dd32ji/brian_s...
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    It was records and communication that the lawyer made on behalf of his client. More interesting is why the judge and prosecutors have not been referred to the bar for their illegal actions.
peoplefromibiza 2y ago
> If you are a criminal lawyer who is directly abetting in criminal behavior Not a lawyer myself but I believe this is not a correct representation of the issue. A lawyer abetting in criminal behaviour is committing a crime, but the crime is not offering his services to criminals, which is completely legal. When offering their services to criminals law firm or individual lawyers in most cases are not required to report crimes they have been made aware of under the attorney-client privilege and are not required to ask to minimize bad actors from using their services. In short: unless they are committing crimes themselves, criminal lawyers are not required to stay clear from criminals, actually, usually the opposite is true. Again, presumption of innocence do exists.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Yep. Your explaination is basically what I was getting at In this case, Telegram showed bad faith moderation. They are not a lawyer, and don't operate with the same constraints.
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
… client wants you to abet their criminal behavior, then you are expected to drop the client and potentially notify law enforcement. When would a lawyer be allowed to snitch on their client?
- MertsA 2y ago
  That in particular would fall under the crime-fraud exception so there's no attorney client privilege.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tialaramex 2y ago

TV drama tends to give people the wrong idea. Your lawyers aren't allowed to aid you with doing any crimes, they're just advocates.

coliveira 2y ago
This happens in real life all the time, just look at Trump's lawyer.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  And they get suspended or disbarred as well as referred to LE.
peoplefromibiza 2y ago
Please do not assume When in doubt, ask. I was replying to any plausible attempt to minimize bad actors from using your service I mentioned criminal lawyers because their job is literally to "offer their services to criminals or to people accused of being criminals" and they have no obligation whatsoever to minimize bad actors from using your service, in fact bad actors are usually their regular clientele and they are free to attract as many criminals as they like in any legal way they like. Helping a criminal to commit a crime it's an entirely different thing and anyway it must be proved in a court, it's not something that can be assumed on the basis of allegations (their clients are criminal, so they must be criminal too). That's why in that famous TV drama Jessy Pinkam says "You dont want a criminal lawyer, you want a Criminal. Lawyer.". The premise of this story is that Telegram offers a service which is very similar to safe deposit boxes, the bank it's not supposed to know what you keep in there hence they are not held responsible if they are used for illegal activities. In other words most of the times people do not know and are not required to know if they are dealing with criminals, but, even if they did, there are no legal reasons to avoid offering them your services other than to avoid problems and/or on moral grounds (which are perfectly understandable motives, but are still not a requirement to operate a business). Take bars, diners, restaurants, gas stations or hospitals, are they supposed to deny their services? And how would they exactly should take actions to minimize bad actors from using your service? If someone goes to a restaurant and talks about committing a crime, is the owner abetting the crime? I guess probably not, unless it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt that he actually is. It doesn't matter if it's true or false it only matters what the justice system can prove.