6 ms·

> He refuses to implement backdoors as well. We have no way to know this, and (unlike Signal), Telegram doesn't give us best-effort assurances by doing things

by smt88 2y ago

> He refuses to implement backdoors as well. We have no way to know this, and (unlike Signal), Telegram doesn't give us best-effort assurances by doing things like open-sourcing its code.

4ad 2y ago
Open source is irrelevant as the protocol is plain text.
- cbsmith 2y ago
  Wait... you're saying if the protocol is binary, that's different somehow? Either way, you're saying the MTProto is binary? How do you mean that?
  - cbsmith 2y ago
    "...you're saying MTProto isn't binary?"
  - 4ad 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaintext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaintext Pretending you misunderstand what I meant is detestable.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Timber-6539 2y ago
What? Literally all Telegram clients are open source.
- konart 2y ago
  What about the server? Telegram is not strictly e2e.
  - Timber-6539 2y ago
    An "open source server"... are you trolling?
    - vilunov 2y ago
      > Show me an example of an "open source server". XMPP and Matrix services run open source software such as ejabberd
      - Timber-6539 2y ago
        Running open source software != "Open source server"
        foresto 2y ago
        If you bothered to look, you would find that both of the examples given are open-source servers. You might then deduce that you misunderstood the comment to which you replied.
        Timber-6539 2y ago
        You cannot audit the system/service logs for those servers, neither can you audit the hardware running those servers, nor the internet providers who can snoop on the traffic et al... That's the argument behind "Open source server" in case it wasn't clear.
        xorcist 2y ago
        This might be where the misunderstanding is. This software is indeed server software that anyone can run, and the global network consists of servers run by many independent entities, in many cases with full control of the hardware. One of these entities can be you, and it is completely possible to run from home. The integrity of your conversation with someone would then depend on both your endpoints, clients, and the respective server. Just like email, but for chat. There is no single gatekeeper who is allowed to use the network.
BeetleB 2y ago
> We have no way to know this Well, other than his arrest ;-)
- calgarymicro 2y ago
  The arrest tells us that he said no to one country, it doesn't say much about all the others.
  - smt88 2y ago
    Russian govt officials are protesting his arrest. When an authoritarian govt is calling for the release of someone who runs a "private" messenger, it suggests they have a back door. Otherwise they tend to oppose all private messaging.
    - kombine 2y ago
      No, there is no logical link between the two events. Russian govt can protest that for propaganda reasons: to make a point that Western governments are restricting freedom of speech.
      - sweeter 2y ago
        They're hitting that Uno Reverse card. Tbf, the US does a LOT of the stuff that we openly criticize Russia and China for. Which, I would hope that people have enough insight to recognize that this is a bad thing across the board. The only people who get hurt and face consequences from this kind of a thing are the citizens.
        averageRoyalty 2y ago
        This is a key perspective people fail to take into account. We've been conditioned by movies, books etc to think everyone fits into these black and white "good and bad" categories. Most western countries do horrific things we do not find acceptable, but when we do find out we hand wave it away because they're the "good guys".
lmm 2y ago
Telegram publishes open-source clients that can run on open-source platforms. Signal does not offer any client that doesn't depend on proprietary code (either iOS or Google Play Services) and is aggressive about taking down third-party builds that remove that dependency. I'd say there's a lot more reason to assume Telegram is not wilfully backdoored than Signal (though I'd trust Wire or Matrix ahead of either of them).
outside415 2y ago
Only his word to go off of.
xorcist 2y ago
We have no real way to check for backdoors in Signal either. Signal is not transparent about what code their servers are running, and you are not allowed to start your own server with a known version. They do not allow for independent distribution of reproducible builds on F-droid, or any other application store that does not identify you. They will take steps to lock out any independent implementations of the client from their servers. That the code for their client is released is good, but not good enough.
isakkeyten 2y ago
> (unlike Signal) Well Tucker Carlson also said he used Signal and his messages were leaked by the government so yeah...

by smt88 2y ago

> He refuses to implement backdoors as well. We have no way to know this, and (unlike Signal), Telegram doesn't give us best-effort assurances by doing things like open-sourcing its code.

4ad 2y ago

Open source is irrelevant as the protocol is plain text.

cbsmith 2y ago
Wait... you're saying if the protocol is binary, that's different somehow? Either way, you're saying the MTProto is binary? How do you mean that?
- cbsmith 2y ago
  "...you're saying MTProto isn't binary?"
- 4ad 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaintext https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaintext Pretending you misunderstand what I meant is detestable.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Timber-6539 2y ago

What? Literally all Telegram clients are open source.

konart 2y ago
What about the server? Telegram is not strictly e2e.
- Timber-6539 2y ago
  An "open source server"... are you trolling?
  - vilunov 2y ago
    > Show me an example of an "open source server". XMPP and Matrix services run open source software such as ejabberd
    - Timber-6539 2y ago
      Running open source software != "Open source server"
      - foresto 2y ago
        If you bothered to look, you would find that both of the examples given are open-source servers. You might then deduce that you misunderstood the comment to which you replied.
        Timber-6539 2y ago
        You cannot audit the system/service logs for those servers, neither can you audit the hardware running those servers, nor the internet providers who can snoop on the traffic et al... That's the argument behind "Open source server" in case it wasn't clear.
        xorcist 2y ago
        This might be where the misunderstanding is. This software is indeed server software that anyone can run, and the global network consists of servers run by many independent entities, in many cases with full control of the hardware. One of these entities can be you, and it is completely possible to run from home. The integrity of your conversation with someone would then depend on both your endpoints, clients, and the respective server. Just like email, but for chat. There is no single gatekeeper who is allowed to use the network.

BeetleB 2y ago

> We have no way to know this Well, other than his arrest ;-)

calgarymicro 2y ago
The arrest tells us that he said no to one country, it doesn't say much about all the others.
- smt88 2y ago
  Russian govt officials are protesting his arrest. When an authoritarian govt is calling for the release of someone who runs a "private" messenger, it suggests they have a back door. Otherwise they tend to oppose all private messaging.
  - kombine 2y ago
    No, there is no logical link between the two events. Russian govt can protest that for propaganda reasons: to make a point that Western governments are restricting freedom of speech.
    - sweeter 2y ago
      They're hitting that Uno Reverse card. Tbf, the US does a LOT of the stuff that we openly criticize Russia and China for. Which, I would hope that people have enough insight to recognize that this is a bad thing across the board. The only people who get hurt and face consequences from this kind of a thing are the citizens.
      - averageRoyalty 2y ago
        This is a key perspective people fail to take into account. We've been conditioned by movies, books etc to think everyone fits into these black and white "good and bad" categories. Most western countries do horrific things we do not find acceptable, but when we do find out we hand wave it away because they're the "good guys".

lmm 2y ago

Telegram publishes open-source clients that can run on open-source platforms. Signal does not offer any client that doesn't depend on proprietary code (either iOS or Google Play Services) and is aggressive about taking down third-party builds that remove that dependency. I'd say there's a lot more reason to assume Telegram is not wilfully backdoored than Signal (though I'd trust Wire or Matrix ahead of either of them).

outside415 2y ago

Only his word to go off of.

xorcist 2y ago

We have no real way to check for backdoors in Signal either. Signal is not transparent about what code their servers are running, and you are not allowed to start your own server with a known version. They do not allow for independent distribution of reproducible builds on F-droid, or any other application store that does not identify you. They will take steps to lock out any independent implementations of the client from their servers. That the code for their client is released is good, but not good enough.

isakkeyten 2y ago

> (unlike Signal) Well Tucker Carlson also said he used Signal and his messages were leaked by the government so yeah...