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Teaching reading without phonetics. The "new math". "Science" without the scientific method. History rewritten to match modern sensibilities. There is a lot of

Teaching reading without phonetics. The "new math". "Science" without the scientific method. History rewritten to match modern sensibilities. There is a lot of evidence that the educational establishment is full of idiots. Alternatively, for the conspiracy theory that it is trying to create compliant peasants rather than educated citizens.

loa_in_ 2y ago
Tutors adapt to their students. Schools adapt to metrics. Why? A tutor can do trial and error and eventually find a way that helps the student understand. School system has a needlesly specific curriculum that is decided a priori, and it's not optional.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  Kind of. I work with a lot of curricula. There are degrees of specificity. Common core is, notably, absurdly specific, and dense. It’s the US at its best, which is to say its worst. Including the fact that CC hasn’t ever really been touched since. This is seldom how curricula in actual developed jurisdictions are built. There are also degrees to which a teacher can ‘play it by ear’ in their classroom. This is informed by their ability to do so competently, and the freedom allowed by their school, school system, etc. The existence of a curricula, even in a public education context, doesn’t inherently disallow a teacher from attempting different teaching styles to get through to a kid, or changing what they focus on in order to teach to their students’ zone of proximal development. Schools “adapting to metrics” is very much moreso informed by the undeniably reality that, with any sizeable group of kids, and realistic constants on resources, you quickly need to start doing “formative assessment”, and doing assessment well is really hard. Above all though, schools adapt to metrics because it’s what’s demanded of them by their bosses. By that, I don’t mean ‘educational bureaucrats’, I mean…parents, taxpayers at large, etc. ‘Hold hands under a rainbow and nothing bad ever happens’ individualised education is simply very hard to monitor, it’s very hard to hold anyone to account. Stakeholders hate this. They want measurement. They want numbers. And numbers invite systems, and putting people into boxes. We get exactly what we deserve here. Nothing more and nothing less.
kstrauser 2y ago
I’ve been very impressed with the “awful” common core math. It teaches kids to think about numbers the way my friends and I do. (Context: I’m not a mathematician, but won lots of state math contests in high school. I didn’t choose to specialize in it but neither do I suck at it.) It’s very different from the dreadfully boring memorization-based curriculum I had to endure.
- drivebyhooting 2y ago
  The problem is you shouldn’t be thinking deeply about addition and multiplication when you’re just number crunching or working through algebraic manipulation. Understanding is well and great, but instant and effortless arithmetic recall is table stakes.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    I've yet to find anyone who hasn't written part of a CAS that understands what algebraic manipulation even is, let alone how to do it outside of hand picked artificial examples. I find it astonishing that term rewriting systems are considered esoteric mathematics that you don't see unless you work in a very specific and niche fields of mathematics or computer science.
    - drivebyhooting 2y ago
      Never met a physicist? Or even someone from engineering department? Plenty of college students are doing multiple pages of derivations for their coursework.
      - llm_trw 2y ago
        And yet, give them something as innocuous as $$ \frac{\frac{a}{b}}{c \times \frac{d}{\frac{e}{f}}} \times \frac{\frac{g}{h \times \frac{i}{j}}}{k} $$ And watch 98% of them fail to bring it to normal for a simple fraction.
        2y ago
r0ckarong 2y ago
> There is a lot of evidence that the educational establishment is full of idiots. The world is full of people who are not smart and don't want to feel inferior. No conspiracy needed, we've collectively decided it's best to dumb down to a common denominator to make everyone feel included. That's what you're seeing here. To a degree this is part of a good society but it also removes incentives to escape mediocrity.
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  >we’ve collectively decided it’s best to dumb down to a common denominator to make everyone feel included What are some examples of this?
  - tivert 2y ago
    > What are some examples of this? Perhaps attempts to abolish gifted and talented programs in schools?
    - drivebyhooting 2y ago
      And abolish algebra until high school.
    - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
      This is a fantastic comment because of how right you think you are, how utterly wrong you are in reality, and the context being the assertion that people don’t like to feel stupid. Thank you so much for this. In the metaphorical galaxy brain comic of this situation, “GATE programs fell out of fashion because of tall poppy syndrome” is the first or AT BEST the third frame. It’s the line of thinking held by the ‘uninformed self-described smart guy’ contingent, that knows nothing about education, yet think that they can intuit their way through it. It’s unrealistic, naive, and utterly condescending. It’s no surprise that I see it so much in tech people.
      - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
bsder 2y ago
> There is a lot of evidence that the educational establishment is full of idiots. You get what you pay for. Pennsylvania attempted to put minimum standards on teachers; a big chunk of the teachers failed. When faced with the huge amount of money the state would have to shell out for teachers who could pass, Pennsylvania dumped the standards and never tried again. Pay in education is garbage relative to all the other jobs a teacher is qualified to be doing instead. And then we complain that education is dominated by the unqualified. And so it goes.
- complaintdept 2y ago
  Teachers unions also negotiate for things that make it nearly impossible to fire an underperforming teacher.
  - bsder 2y ago
    This is the "welfare queen" dog whistle of anti-union propaganda. Please stop spreading it. Yes, school management has to genuinely document an "underperforming teacher". There is a full legal process that has to be followed and it takes time. Too bad, so sad. However, the problem is that school management doesn't want to produce that "documentation". It is genuine work and has the downside of maybe exposing that the teacher isn't underperforming and now a countersuit is incoming. In addition, attempting to fire a teacher almost always causes a kerfuffle in the community unless the teacher is complete garbage. And, see, if you, as a superintendent cause a kerfuffle, that is going to hit the local news and the Internet and is going to be a negative mark when you want your next job (superintendents tend to move on while most teachers do not). So, what your little shibboleth is advocating for is unlimited authority by the superintendent to punish anybody they deem a "troublemaker"--which is any teacher with the temerity to do something that might get in the way of their next promotion. And that optimizes for teachers who simply don't rock the boat under any circumstances irrespective of any teaching skill or educational results.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Yes unions are bad and if we have less union then everything would magically be better. Also if we continue to burn coal and nobody takes the Jab we'd all be smarter or something.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

loa_in_ 2y ago

Tutors adapt to their students. Schools adapt to metrics. Why? A tutor can do trial and error and eventually find a way that helps the student understand. School system has a needlesly specific curriculum that is decided a priori, and it's not optional.

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
Kind of. I work with a lot of curricula. There are degrees of specificity. Common core is, notably, absurdly specific, and dense. It’s the US at its best, which is to say its worst. Including the fact that CC hasn’t ever really been touched since. This is seldom how curricula in actual developed jurisdictions are built. There are also degrees to which a teacher can ‘play it by ear’ in their classroom. This is informed by their ability to do so competently, and the freedom allowed by their school, school system, etc. The existence of a curricula, even in a public education context, doesn’t inherently disallow a teacher from attempting different teaching styles to get through to a kid, or changing what they focus on in order to teach to their students’ zone of proximal development. Schools “adapting to metrics” is very much moreso informed by the undeniably reality that, with any sizeable group of kids, and realistic constants on resources, you quickly need to start doing “formative assessment”, and doing assessment well is really hard. Above all though, schools adapt to metrics because it’s what’s demanded of them by their bosses. By that, I don’t mean ‘educational bureaucrats’, I mean…parents, taxpayers at large, etc. ‘Hold hands under a rainbow and nothing bad ever happens’ individualised education is simply very hard to monitor, it’s very hard to hold anyone to account. Stakeholders hate this. They want measurement. They want numbers. And numbers invite systems, and putting people into boxes. We get exactly what we deserve here. Nothing more and nothing less.

kstrauser 2y ago

I’ve been very impressed with the “awful” common core math. It teaches kids to think about numbers the way my friends and I do. (Context: I’m not a mathematician, but won lots of state math contests in high school. I didn’t choose to specialize in it but neither do I suck at it.) It’s very different from the dreadfully boring memorization-based curriculum I had to endure.

drivebyhooting 2y ago
The problem is you shouldn’t be thinking deeply about addition and multiplication when you’re just number crunching or working through algebraic manipulation. Understanding is well and great, but instant and effortless arithmetic recall is table stakes.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  I've yet to find anyone who hasn't written part of a CAS that understands what algebraic manipulation even is, let alone how to do it outside of hand picked artificial examples. I find it astonishing that term rewriting systems are considered esoteric mathematics that you don't see unless you work in a very specific and niche fields of mathematics or computer science.
  - drivebyhooting 2y ago
    Never met a physicist? Or even someone from engineering department? Plenty of college students are doing multiple pages of derivations for their coursework.
    - llm_trw 2y ago
      And yet, give them something as innocuous as $$ \frac{\frac{a}{b}}{c \times \frac{d}{\frac{e}{f}}} \times \frac{\frac{g}{h \times \frac{i}{j}}}{k} $$ And watch 98% of them fail to bring it to normal for a simple fraction.
      - 2y ago

r0ckarong 2y ago

> There is a lot of evidence that the educational establishment is full of idiots. The world is full of people who are not smart and don't want to feel inferior. No conspiracy needed, we've collectively decided it's best to dumb down to a common denominator to make everyone feel included. That's what you're seeing here. To a degree this is part of a good society but it also removes incentives to escape mediocrity.

BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
>we’ve collectively decided it’s best to dumb down to a common denominator to make everyone feel included What are some examples of this?
- tivert 2y ago
  > What are some examples of this? Perhaps attempts to abolish gifted and talented programs in schools?
  - drivebyhooting 2y ago
    And abolish algebra until high school.
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
    This is a fantastic comment because of how right you think you are, how utterly wrong you are in reality, and the context being the assertion that people don’t like to feel stupid. Thank you so much for this. In the metaphorical galaxy brain comic of this situation, “GATE programs fell out of fashion because of tall poppy syndrome” is the first or AT BEST the third frame. It’s the line of thinking held by the ‘uninformed self-described smart guy’ contingent, that knows nothing about education, yet think that they can intuit their way through it. It’s unrealistic, naive, and utterly condescending. It’s no surprise that I see it so much in tech people.
    - BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago

bsder 2y ago

> There is a lot of evidence that the educational establishment is full of idiots. You get what you pay for. Pennsylvania attempted to put minimum standards on teachers; a big chunk of the teachers failed. When faced with the huge amount of money the state would have to shell out for teachers who could pass, Pennsylvania dumped the standards and never tried again. Pay in education is garbage relative to all the other jobs a teacher is qualified to be doing instead. And then we complain that education is dominated by the unqualified. And so it goes.

complaintdept 2y ago
Teachers unions also negotiate for things that make it nearly impossible to fire an underperforming teacher.
- bsder 2y ago
  This is the "welfare queen" dog whistle of anti-union propaganda. Please stop spreading it. Yes, school management has to genuinely document an "underperforming teacher". There is a full legal process that has to be followed and it takes time. Too bad, so sad. However, the problem is that school management doesn't want to produce that "documentation". It is genuine work and has the downside of maybe exposing that the teacher isn't underperforming and now a countersuit is incoming. In addition, attempting to fire a teacher almost always causes a kerfuffle in the community unless the teacher is complete garbage. And, see, if you, as a superintendent cause a kerfuffle, that is going to hit the local news and the Internet and is going to be a negative mark when you want your next job (superintendents tend to move on while most teachers do not). So, what your little shibboleth is advocating for is unlimited authority by the superintendent to punish anybody they deem a "troublemaker"--which is any teacher with the temerity to do something that might get in the way of their next promotion. And that optimizes for teachers who simply don't rock the boat under any circumstances irrespective of any teaching skill or educational results.
- consteval 2y ago
  Yes unions are bad and if we have less union then everything would magically be better. Also if we continue to burn coal and nobody takes the Jab we'd all be smarter or something.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]