7 ms·

Serpent OS Pre-Alpha-0 released

92 points by ekTHEN 2y ago

silisili 2y ago
While I have a lot of respect for Ikey and think he's extremely talented, he tends to start a project and then either move to something else or disappear. Hey, life happens, and doing open source work for free is a grind, so it's not meant as an insult. But I'd see Serpent as a toy/POC rather than a long lived OS. I'm excited to try it, either way. I -believe- I read that a lot of this work will be going into Solus, a previous Ikey project, which has a new team and small community now. So hopefully this is kinda best of both worlds if true for both sides.
- keyle 2y ago
  I don't know the author but it's worth keeping in mind that... Sometimes people end working on a project because - it has no future, ran its course, proved wrong somehow - cannot add more that others could do better - an alternative makes more sense long term It's true that many people end working on something because it gets too hard or they lack focus. But in this case, seeing the breath of the projects, this is not the case.
  - silisili 2y ago
    Absolutely, thanks for pointing that out. I really hope it didn't come across as condescending, as I didn't intend it to be - because I have the same habit. Do something until it's not exciting anymore and move on. Though unlike myself more often, he tends to actually finish what he's working on initially. I guess I was trying to paint a short historical picture and why I'm pretty excited about it as a Solus user - its package manager is a bit long in the tooth. I think could be a really great relationship having one team/person prototype and another adopt into something more stable.
  - squarefoot 2y ago
    I would add: - it accomplished the task of teaching some technology/language/practice to the author, so that it becomes subjectively useless after that knowledge is absorbed. Sometimes people start building a car because they need an incentive to practice making wheels.
  - jorvi 2y ago
    Sometimes you start a project, more and more people start to collaborate, and eventually most of the project's contributors want to move it in a direction that doesn't interest you. At that point you can either be a spoilsport, or step away amicably.
- e3bc54b2 2y ago
  I was a Solus user back when Ikey left. It was highly unusual, maintainer team had no insight, and frankly as a user it left a fairly bad taste. But, Ikey had his reasons, and as I've grown up a bit over the years, I realize it is okay. Other maintainers picked up the tab pretty well, and for all its worth, quite a few of those maintainers have joined Ikey on this new distro, which signals a reconciliation. Combined with other comments, I'd say what happened at Solus was imperfect, could have been communicated better, but probably still couldn't be avoided. Such is life.
arccy 2y ago
prealpha is such a weird name, just call it a dev/nightly build or an actual alpha
- keyle 2y ago
  Beta is typically close to feature complete. Alpha is basically not close to feature complete. Pre-alpha is check this out but here be dragons! For an OS it makes sense, seeing failure typically means a hard reboot.
- Lerc 2y ago
  For the level of development I would consider preAlpha, I would count myself lucky if it built on any given night. I think of it as, "hey, this one doesn't immediately implode. Let's let people look at it"
KerrAvon 2y ago
Had to click around to figure this out: it’s yet another Linux distribution. Seems to be focused on quality-of-life for Rust developers.
gigatexal 2y ago
It’s ikey! I’ll follow this and when it goes to beta really dive in.
kragen 2y ago
did they implement the linux system call interface or come up with their own? how linux-compatible is it? it must be pretty complete if it can run firefox
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure it is a Linux distro, if slightly unusual userspace.
  - kragen 2y ago
    why are they calling it an os then? cosplaying arnold kling?
    - akovaski 2y ago
      Its fairly common to refer to Linux distros as an OS, or even include OS in the distro name (Pop!_OS, NixOS, CentOS). Linux is the kernel, and disros add stuff to make a functional operating system.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - randkyp 2y ago
      It's a trademark thing; there are some prerequisites and manual approval involved before you get to officially name your distro "[Distro Name] Linux". https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/the-linux-mark https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/the-linux-mark
      - kragen 2y ago
        that's not much of an excuse for pretending to have written an os; the only real requirement in https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/sublicense-agreement https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/sublicense-agreement is that you acknowledge that linus torvalds owns the linux trademark
tkz1312 2y ago
Looks very cool. Seems to have a very similar feature set to nixos, curious how they compare?
- pshirshov 2y ago
  Nix is declarative, this one is imperative.
  - lproven 2y ago
    To précis my earlier comment: What does that mean, and why should anyone care?
ofrzeta 2y ago
It might be an "OS" but it has a Linux kernel. It's a self-acclaimed "pioneering Linux distribution". It has some features other distros/tools implement to some extent as well: rebootless atomic upgrades, rollback. See Fedora/rpm-os-tree, Nix etc.
pshirshov 2y ago
Why someone would want an imperative distro over a declaratively configured one?
- kombine 2y ago
  This is true, there are already a plenty of imperative distros to choose from and they offer more or less similar experience. If I ever want to switch to something else, this would be NixOS or another declarative one.
  - pshirshov 2y ago
    Plenty? I'm aware of only two.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  No idea. It seems to have gone off in the direction of "shiny and new" without deeply considering more practical architectural decisions like isolating system vs. userland, configuration management, or manageability. It's unfortunate because there are zillions of Linux distros, and most of them (numerically) are terrible, insanely impractical, user hostile, and/or poorly documented. If you're going to create a distro, at least have a use-case justification for it where other distros or other OSes ([wd]o|ca)n't meet the needs of them adequately.
  - e3bc54b2 2y ago
    > It seems to have gone off in the direction of "shiny and new" Ikey's last foray into distro-building also left same impression on me. > without deeply considering more practical architectural decisions like isolating system vs. userland, configuration management, or manageability I dunno, FWIW, Solus was very well regarded in UX for a while. It had the best steam integration, and the whole thing felt fairly well thought out for something built and maintained by half dozen people. > If you're going to create a distro, at least have a use-case justification for it That is unfair. The developers felt there is a gap between fully imperative state-modifying mudball and fully declarative purity-land, which is true, and decided to try their hand at it. How well they did is yet to be seen.
AnonCoward42 2y ago
> Rebootless atomic updates - no more interruptions Does it mean the same as in all other distros when you install packages and they restart the services? Or does it actually replace the kernel as well? Maybe a stupid question, but the latter would be revolutionary, even if it is technically already possible, but very elaborated. If the latter is not true, you should still reboot after a kernel update and there is not much difference to most other distributions.
- Palomides 2y ago
  linux (the kernel) supports "Kernel Live Patching" and several distros provide the updates to do it
  - AnonCoward42 2y ago
    As I said. It is technically possible, but it is relatively elaborated (for the provider of these patches). As far as I know you don't get them without having an online account at the provider of these patches. But the questions was: Does SerpentOS have the ability to change the kernel without reboot? Edit: > This will mean that the /lib/modules tree may not have the current kernel version, but the OS will still be usable while having had a live atomic update. Of course, to use the new kernel you must reboot. Unlike other atomic OS implementations, it will be up to you when you do so: no more deferred updates! https://serpentos.com/blog/2024/04/30/calm-before-the-storm/#live-atomic-updates-and-kernels https://serpentos.com/blog/2024/04/30/calm-before-the-storm/...
fuzzfactor 2y ago
For an ISO, "Live Mode" can be one of the most useful things.
yencabulator 2y ago
I find it very hard to get excited about this shell-scripts-in-YAML-with-macros language: https://github.com/serpent-os/recipes/blob/b269cef9b42645b89d74fc363ea46435d4e24cb2/s/sway/stone.yaml#L40-L47 https://github.com/serpent-os/recipes/blob/b269cef9b42645b89... setup : | %patch %(pkgdir)/enhance-config.patch %patch %(pkgdir)/0001-Make-sway-stateless.patch %meson -Ddefault_sysconfdir=%(vendordir)%(sysconfdir) build : | %meson_build install : | %meson_install

92 points by ekTHEN 2y ago

While I have a lot of respect for Ikey and think he's extremely talented, he tends to start a project and then either move to something else or disappear. Hey, life happens, and doing open source work for free is a grind, so it's not meant as an insult. But I'd see Serpent as a toy/POC rather than a long lived OS. I'm excited to try it, either way. I -believe- I read that a lot of this work will be going into Solus, a previous Ikey project, which has a new team and small community now. So hopefully this is kinda best of both worlds if true for both sides.

keyle 2y ago
I don't know the author but it's worth keeping in mind that... Sometimes people end working on a project because - it has no future, ran its course, proved wrong somehow - cannot add more that others could do better - an alternative makes more sense long term It's true that many people end working on something because it gets too hard or they lack focus. But in this case, seeing the breath of the projects, this is not the case.
- silisili 2y ago
  Absolutely, thanks for pointing that out. I really hope it didn't come across as condescending, as I didn't intend it to be - because I have the same habit. Do something until it's not exciting anymore and move on. Though unlike myself more often, he tends to actually finish what he's working on initially. I guess I was trying to paint a short historical picture and why I'm pretty excited about it as a Solus user - its package manager is a bit long in the tooth. I think could be a really great relationship having one team/person prototype and another adopt into something more stable.
- squarefoot 2y ago
  I would add: - it accomplished the task of teaching some technology/language/practice to the author, so that it becomes subjectively useless after that knowledge is absorbed. Sometimes people start building a car because they need an incentive to practice making wheels.
- jorvi 2y ago
  Sometimes you start a project, more and more people start to collaborate, and eventually most of the project's contributors want to move it in a direction that doesn't interest you. At that point you can either be a spoilsport, or step away amicably.
e3bc54b2 2y ago
I was a Solus user back when Ikey left. It was highly unusual, maintainer team had no insight, and frankly as a user it left a fairly bad taste. But, Ikey had his reasons, and as I've grown up a bit over the years, I realize it is okay. Other maintainers picked up the tab pretty well, and for all its worth, quite a few of those maintainers have joined Ikey on this new distro, which signals a reconciliation. Combined with other comments, I'd say what happened at Solus was imperfect, could have been communicated better, but probably still couldn't be avoided. Such is life.

arccy 2y ago

prealpha is such a weird name, just call it a dev/nightly build or an actual alpha

keyle 2y ago
Beta is typically close to feature complete. Alpha is basically not close to feature complete. Pre-alpha is check this out but here be dragons! For an OS it makes sense, seeing failure typically means a hard reboot.
Lerc 2y ago
For the level of development I would consider preAlpha, I would count myself lucky if it built on any given night. I think of it as, "hey, this one doesn't immediately implode. Let's let people look at it"

KerrAvon 2y ago

Had to click around to figure this out: it’s yet another Linux distribution. Seems to be focused on quality-of-life for Rust developers.

gigatexal 2y ago

It’s ikey! I’ll follow this and when it goes to beta really dive in.

kragen 2y ago

did they implement the linux system call interface or come up with their own? how linux-compatible is it? it must be pretty complete if it can run firefox

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
I'm pretty sure it is a Linux distro, if slightly unusual userspace.
- kragen 2y ago
  why are they calling it an os then? cosplaying arnold kling?
  - akovaski 2y ago
    Its fairly common to refer to Linux distros as an OS, or even include OS in the distro name (Pop!_OS, NixOS, CentOS). Linux is the kernel, and disros add stuff to make a functional operating system.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - randkyp 2y ago
    It's a trademark thing; there are some prerequisites and manual approval involved before you get to officially name your distro "[Distro Name] Linux". https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/the-linux-mark https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/the-linux-mark
    - kragen 2y ago
      that's not much of an excuse for pretending to have written an os; the only real requirement in https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/sublicense-agreement https://www.linuxfoundation.org/legal/sublicense-agreement is that you acknowledge that linus torvalds owns the linux trademark

tkz1312 2y ago

Looks very cool. Seems to have a very similar feature set to nixos, curious how they compare?

pshirshov 2y ago
Nix is declarative, this one is imperative.
- lproven 2y ago
  To précis my earlier comment: What does that mean, and why should anyone care?

ofrzeta 2y ago

It might be an "OS" but it has a Linux kernel. It's a self-acclaimed "pioneering Linux distribution". It has some features other distros/tools implement to some extent as well: rebootless atomic upgrades, rollback. See Fedora/rpm-os-tree, Nix etc.

pshirshov 2y ago

Why someone would want an imperative distro over a declaratively configured one?

kombine 2y ago
This is true, there are already a plenty of imperative distros to choose from and they offer more or less similar experience. If I ever want to switch to something else, this would be NixOS or another declarative one.
- pshirshov 2y ago
  Plenty? I'm aware of only two.
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
No idea. It seems to have gone off in the direction of "shiny and new" without deeply considering more practical architectural decisions like isolating system vs. userland, configuration management, or manageability. It's unfortunate because there are zillions of Linux distros, and most of them (numerically) are terrible, insanely impractical, user hostile, and/or poorly documented. If you're going to create a distro, at least have a use-case justification for it where other distros or other OSes ([wd]o|ca)n't meet the needs of them adequately.
- e3bc54b2 2y ago
  > It seems to have gone off in the direction of "shiny and new" Ikey's last foray into distro-building also left same impression on me. > without deeply considering more practical architectural decisions like isolating system vs. userland, configuration management, or manageability I dunno, FWIW, Solus was very well regarded in UX for a while. It had the best steam integration, and the whole thing felt fairly well thought out for something built and maintained by half dozen people. > If you're going to create a distro, at least have a use-case justification for it That is unfair. The developers felt there is a gap between fully imperative state-modifying mudball and fully declarative purity-land, which is true, and decided to try their hand at it. How well they did is yet to be seen.

AnonCoward42 2y ago

> Rebootless atomic updates - no more interruptions Does it mean the same as in all other distros when you install packages and they restart the services? Or does it actually replace the kernel as well? Maybe a stupid question, but the latter would be revolutionary, even if it is technically already possible, but very elaborated. If the latter is not true, you should still reboot after a kernel update and there is not much difference to most other distributions.

Palomides 2y ago
linux (the kernel) supports "Kernel Live Patching" and several distros provide the updates to do it
- AnonCoward42 2y ago
  As I said. It is technically possible, but it is relatively elaborated (for the provider of these patches). As far as I know you don't get them without having an online account at the provider of these patches. But the questions was: Does SerpentOS have the ability to change the kernel without reboot? Edit: > This will mean that the /lib/modules tree may not have the current kernel version, but the OS will still be usable while having had a live atomic update. Of course, to use the new kernel you must reboot. Unlike other atomic OS implementations, it will be up to you when you do so: no more deferred updates! https://serpentos.com/blog/2024/04/30/calm-before-the-storm/#live-atomic-updates-and-kernels https://serpentos.com/blog/2024/04/30/calm-before-the-storm/...

fuzzfactor 2y ago

For an ISO, "Live Mode" can be one of the most useful things.

yencabulator 2y ago

I find it very hard to get excited about this shell-scripts-in-YAML-with-macros language: https://github.com/serpent-os/recipes/blob/b269cef9b42645b89d74fc363ea46435d4e24cb2/s/sway/stone.yaml#L40-L47 https://github.com/serpent-os/recipes/blob/b269cef9b42645b89... setup : | %patch %(pkgdir)/enhance-config.patch %patch %(pkgdir)/0001-Make-sway-stateless.patch %meson -Ddefault_sysconfdir=%(vendordir)%(sysconfdir) build : | %meson_build install : | %meson_install