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To be clear, the legislation in France and in the EU that is most likely behind this arrest is that companies have to at least try to do some moderation. There

by a0123 2y ago

To be clear, the legislation in France and in the EU that is most likely behind this arrest is that companies have to at least try to do some moderation. There is an understanding that not everything can be moderated (obviously, the entire Internet would be banned otherwise) but there has to be a genuine attempt. Which every company does more or less. The fact that Telegram doesn't reach this extremely low, very low bar is quite something.

spwa4 2y ago
What keeps amazing me is that this is supposed to make children's lives better, by helping social services. Of course, such legislation only has any chance in hell of improving lives if the standard of living for children, the education, the ... IN social services is good. It is very easy to see this WILL put more children into such a situation, and that's about the only thing such legislation will definitely do. It is completely absurd to think this is going to end drugs, abuse or whatever else they're looking for. Is that the case? Is it the case that the standard of living, education, ... in social services is good? No. Not at all. There's constant scandals and if a child that gets into a social services institution makes it into university, just one, any given year, that's national news. Prostitution in social services is common, drugs and crime are everywhere. It seems there is A LOT more work to be done on the other side of social services first. They seem to perform VERY badly once they actually catch someone. So why do this? Because it isn't to help children. At the very best they see this as a cheap way to look like they're improving social services.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  They're building the penthouse suite with all the luxuries you could imagine, but the foundation is rotting away and, if anything, becoming more ignored rather than increasingly important. It lays bare that their motivation is blanket surveillance for their own political ends and nothing to do with protecting children in the slightest. Social Services are one of the most consistently underfunded and under-resources arms of government. Australia has recently had to "increase the bar" at which mandatory reporting is required because the resources don't exist to even consider investigation of cases where the child's life isn't in immediate danger. It's gross, but it seems politics around the world has found it's shared water level, and that level is happy with exploiting exploited children.
codedokode 2y ago
Telegram allows to report illegal posts; I suggest that France arrests those who saw the posts but didn't report them instead.
- NoxiousPluK 2y ago
  To be fair, anyone that has used Telegram for a while know that this is just a mock option to fool regulators. You can report all you want; zero action is taken. There are dozens of accounts that joined groups I'm in to spam CSAM. We've reported them, kicked/banned them from the group. Months later you can look them up and they're still there and still active. They even post CSAM in their public (visible for everyone on their profile) stories.
  - cft 2y ago
    I tried to market something very small on Telegram and was surprised how fast my account got restricted.
    - NoxiousPluK 2y ago
      Yes they do combat spam, but barely CSAM.
  - kspacewalk2 2y ago
    The amount of obviously illegal content on Telegram makes it plain that, for all intents and purposes, it is an un-moderated platform. They sporadically moderate when there's serious pressure, but for the most part do nothing.
  - 55555 2y ago
    I’ve used tg daily for 7+ years and have never seen CSAM. What kind of groups are you in? Genuine question. I assume some sort of “teen” porn groups?
    - NoxiousPluK 2y ago
      Absolutely not. This stuff happens in a lot of technology groups, custom ROM groups, even a small (but public) board game group got overrun with it once; multiple accounts posting dozens of CSAM videos/images in a minute after joining - kept going for a few weeks.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dmix 2y ago
It's so disingenuous to say it's just a small requirement. It always starts off small than grows and grows into ever widening topics and unfavourable people. We've seen that plenty of times on the internet and in history. The good intentions in the early days won't make any difference in 20yrs from now.
ranndino 2y ago
Telegram is not a behemoth like Facebook so doesn't have their resources to moderate everything. Even Facebook isn't particularly good at it. They mostly rely on software which often produces false positives. This arrest is completely preposterous and is just an attempt to get Durov to play ball with France's privacy destroying authorities.
- ssijak 2y ago
  Not being a behemot is not an excuse if they are not moderating criminal behavior at all. I dont know if that is the case, just pointing that logic is not sound.
- toofy 2y ago
  lately when i see arguments like yours one thing keeps popping into my head. i’m not sure how i feel about the following yet but it’s been on my mind a bit for the past couple of years: if someone is incapable of making good faith genuine attempts to mitigate against atrocious things happening openly in the property they control, then isn’t this fairly solid evidence they’re just not capable of owning that property? if they make such an excuse, it would seem to me they’re either too irresponsible or just plain incompetent. again, i’m not sure how i feel about the implications of this, but the whole “we just don’t have the resources” feels like a cowards excuse rather than reality—particularly as someone already pointed out, they seem to gather their wits to make a sizable dent when it’s spam.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    According to this rule, approximately 100% of officials must be thrown out of their jobs right this second. I think you are mostly correct about irresponsibility, incompetence, and excuses, but I don't see why there should be legal consequences for people who did not take on any obligations. Especially in the situation, when people who take on, like all officials, have no responsibility
    - toofy 2y ago
      it’s still a bit muddy why he was arrested, but it seems like it’s due to his constant dismissal of any responsibility. i’m not sure of the specifics of what you mean by 100% of officials must be thrown out” but if im understanding what you’re implying, i disagree, most land owners, elected officials, capable owners of organizations take meaningful or genuine good faith efforts to address open corruption in their spaces . and if they don’t, then yes, why wouldn’t we hold them responsible? it seems like you’re indicating there should be no consequences for people who don’t take on obligations… > i don’t see why there should be legal consequences for people who did not take on any obligations. of course they take on obligations, it’s partially why we pay executives so much because they’re taking on obligations. this isn’t some pauper struggling to pay rent on his studio apartment—he was arrested after traveling from one country to another in his private jet. again, i haven’t spent much energy on the implications from effect iteration of this but we have pretty solid evidence of what happens when we allow these wannabe kings to claim they should have nothing but positive personal benefits while externalizing any negatives onto the rest of us. “you should pay me obscene amounts and treat me like a king while i take no responsibility whatsoever” is absurd. and we’re seeing the cascading effects of this absurdity in real time.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
LtWorf 2y ago
They occasionally remove copyright violating files, so they do something.

by a0123 2y ago

spwa4 2y ago

What keeps amazing me is that this is supposed to make children's lives better, by helping social services. Of course, such legislation only has any chance in hell of improving lives if the standard of living for children, the education, the ... IN social services is good. It is very easy to see this WILL put more children into such a situation, and that's about the only thing such legislation will definitely do. It is completely absurd to think this is going to end drugs, abuse or whatever else they're looking for. Is that the case? Is it the case that the standard of living, education, ... in social services is good? No. Not at all. There's constant scandals and if a child that gets into a social services institution makes it into university, just one, any given year, that's national news. Prostitution in social services is common, drugs and crime are everywhere. It seems there is A LOT more work to be done on the other side of social services first. They seem to perform VERY badly once they actually catch someone. So why do this? Because it isn't to help children. At the very best they see this as a cheap way to look like they're improving social services.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago
They're building the penthouse suite with all the luxuries you could imagine, but the foundation is rotting away and, if anything, becoming more ignored rather than increasingly important. It lays bare that their motivation is blanket surveillance for their own political ends and nothing to do with protecting children in the slightest. Social Services are one of the most consistently underfunded and under-resources arms of government. Australia has recently had to "increase the bar" at which mandatory reporting is required because the resources don't exist to even consider investigation of cases where the child's life isn't in immediate danger. It's gross, but it seems politics around the world has found it's shared water level, and that level is happy with exploiting exploited children.

codedokode 2y ago

Telegram allows to report illegal posts; I suggest that France arrests those who saw the posts but didn't report them instead.

NoxiousPluK 2y ago
To be fair, anyone that has used Telegram for a while know that this is just a mock option to fool regulators. You can report all you want; zero action is taken. There are dozens of accounts that joined groups I'm in to spam CSAM. We've reported them, kicked/banned them from the group. Months later you can look them up and they're still there and still active. They even post CSAM in their public (visible for everyone on their profile) stories.
- cft 2y ago
  I tried to market something very small on Telegram and was surprised how fast my account got restricted.
  - NoxiousPluK 2y ago
    Yes they do combat spam, but barely CSAM.
- kspacewalk2 2y ago
  The amount of obviously illegal content on Telegram makes it plain that, for all intents and purposes, it is an un-moderated platform. They sporadically moderate when there's serious pressure, but for the most part do nothing.
- 55555 2y ago
  I’ve used tg daily for 7+ years and have never seen CSAM. What kind of groups are you in? Genuine question. I assume some sort of “teen” porn groups?
  - NoxiousPluK 2y ago
    Absolutely not. This stuff happens in a lot of technology groups, custom ROM groups, even a small (but public) board game group got overrun with it once; multiple accounts posting dozens of CSAM videos/images in a minute after joining - kept going for a few weeks.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dmix 2y ago

It's so disingenuous to say it's just a small requirement. It always starts off small than grows and grows into ever widening topics and unfavourable people. We've seen that plenty of times on the internet and in history. The good intentions in the early days won't make any difference in 20yrs from now.

ranndino 2y ago

Telegram is not a behemoth like Facebook so doesn't have their resources to moderate everything. Even Facebook isn't particularly good at it. They mostly rely on software which often produces false positives. This arrest is completely preposterous and is just an attempt to get Durov to play ball with France's privacy destroying authorities.

ssijak 2y ago
Not being a behemot is not an excuse if they are not moderating criminal behavior at all. I dont know if that is the case, just pointing that logic is not sound.
toofy 2y ago
lately when i see arguments like yours one thing keeps popping into my head. i’m not sure how i feel about the following yet but it’s been on my mind a bit for the past couple of years: if someone is incapable of making good faith genuine attempts to mitigate against atrocious things happening openly in the property they control, then isn’t this fairly solid evidence they’re just not capable of owning that property? if they make such an excuse, it would seem to me they’re either too irresponsible or just plain incompetent. again, i’m not sure how i feel about the implications of this, but the whole “we just don’t have the resources” feels like a cowards excuse rather than reality—particularly as someone already pointed out, they seem to gather their wits to make a sizable dent when it’s spam.
- Ray20 2y ago
  According to this rule, approximately 100% of officials must be thrown out of their jobs right this second. I think you are mostly correct about irresponsibility, incompetence, and excuses, but I don't see why there should be legal consequences for people who did not take on any obligations. Especially in the situation, when people who take on, like all officials, have no responsibility
  - toofy 2y ago
    it’s still a bit muddy why he was arrested, but it seems like it’s due to his constant dismissal of any responsibility. i’m not sure of the specifics of what you mean by 100% of officials must be thrown out” but if im understanding what you’re implying, i disagree, most land owners, elected officials, capable owners of organizations take meaningful or genuine good faith efforts to address open corruption in their spaces . and if they don’t, then yes, why wouldn’t we hold them responsible? it seems like you’re indicating there should be no consequences for people who don’t take on obligations… > i don’t see why there should be legal consequences for people who did not take on any obligations. of course they take on obligations, it’s partially why we pay executives so much because they’re taking on obligations. this isn’t some pauper struggling to pay rent on his studio apartment—he was arrested after traveling from one country to another in his private jet. again, i haven’t spent much energy on the implications from effect iteration of this but we have pretty solid evidence of what happens when we allow these wannabe kings to claim they should have nothing but positive personal benefits while externalizing any negatives onto the rest of us. “you should pay me obscene amounts and treat me like a king while i take no responsibility whatsoever” is absurd. and we’re seeing the cascading effects of this absurdity in real time.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

LtWorf 2y ago

They occasionally remove copyright violating files, so they do something.