4 ms·

Funny story - there were some protests in my country some months ago. We're a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a dictatorship. During the protes

by gck1 2y ago

Funny story - there were some protests in my country some months ago. We're a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a dictatorship. During the protests, the government used masked 'civilians,' or what you'd call 'titushkis,' to beat up activists at their home addresses or elsewhere in public. We were also getting calls from fake numbers on our personal numbers with threats. A channel was created on Telegram by a government propaganda journalist, where they basically dox every activist, posting their addresses, phone numbers, and other private details, at times when these details are actively used for beating people to near death. That's the only content that Telegram channel produces. I was one of the people whose details were posted on that channel. My phone number, home address, etc., were posted there, along with the private details of tens of others. I contacted Telegram support multiple times, we mass reported the channel - not once have I gotten an answer, and the entire channel is still up, for nearly 4 months. So, hearing that he's arrested for lack of moderation? Good. I'm very happy. Hope he learns a lesson. EDIT: Country is Georgia

Svoka 2y ago
Unfortunately telegram actively engaging with russian govenment. Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool itself.
- foverzar 2y ago
  > Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool itself. How can it possibly be "a propaganda tool" when it has no feed, no algorithms, no suggestions or recommendations? You only get sources you've willingly subscribed to, nothing else. This reads as such a cope.
  - Svoka 2y ago
    Telegram has also absolutely no filters, so it can be filled with lies and propaganda without any response from the platform, except, only if it is russian government making requests. Your responses remind me of russian bot playbooks, tbh. Are you one?
    - foverzar 2y ago
      > Telegram has also absolutely no filters Your own head should be your filter. This is literally craving for Big Brother. > so it can be filled with lies and propaganda without any response from the platform So does any other platform with the only difference being that it's the "right" kind of lies and propaganda that would also be shown down your throat with the rest of your feed. The cope is real. > only if it is russian government making requests Says who? > Your responses remind me of russian bot playbooks, tbh. Are you one? Well of course they do, and of course I am. Everyone knows that everyone who doesn't share your opinions and perspectives in 2024 isn't even worth of being considered a human being, duh!
mmsc 2y ago
In case anybody was wondering, OP is talking about Georgia the country.
- honksillet 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mmsc 2y ago
    Canada is not "a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a dictatorship."
    - compiler-devel 2y ago
      It isn’t? I’m sure the railway workers who were just forced back to work would disagree.
      - mmsc 2y ago
        I'm sure if those workers picked up a dictionary and looked up the word dictatorship, they would agree. They have a vote. One person does not rule the country.
        compiler-devel 2y ago
        They don't need a dictionary to tell them that they're not oppressed when the reality in front of their faces says otherwise.
floam 2y ago
Ukraine? That’s the only context I’ve read the term titushkis. But those were used against Euromaiden protesters and with what happened since, plus the given n month timelines, that just doesn’t make sense.
- gck1 2y ago
  Georgia. They used same tactics, so that's why I also call them titushkis.
- Svoka 2y ago
  Titushki is tool of russian world politicians to deal with descent. They are used all over the place.
cypress66 2y ago
What you call moderation is also a tool dictatorships use to censor people. It goes both ways.
- bryant 2y ago
  > What you call moderation is also a tool dictatorships use to censor people. It goes both ways. The veracity of this claim aside, posting this as a reply to someone who just shared their own experience getting doxxed in a country where victims have legitimate grounds to fear for their lives... feels a little out of place. Also, usually the dictatorships abuse the censors once their grasp is firm. Until then, they're typically abusing the lack of censorship for their own ends. We see that here in the US with troll farms abusing limited content moderation around misinformation to sway public opinion with falsehoods. Countries are trying to pull the US election in both directions right now this way.
  - blackhawkC17 2y ago
    > Posting this as a reply to someone who just shared their own experience getting doxxed in a country where victims have legitimate grounds to fear for their lives... feels a little out of place. They should pick a bone with their country’s government that allows such thing to happen, not Telegram.
    - gck1 2y ago
      You do realize, that we got on that channel because we're picking a bone with the government, right?
- gck1 2y ago
  Since perchlorate's comment is now dead, and yours is similar, going to reply here. I do agree to some extent. Having tools to challenge a dictatorship that cannot be silenced can indeed become invaluable. However, there is a significant difference between responsible moderation, which aims to protect individuals' safety, and full-blown censorship. While it can be a slippery slope, the absence of moderation shouldn't leave users defenseless against doxxing and threats, which can have real, harmful, and even deadly consequences. There must be some form of balance. From my experience, it feels like Telegram lacks any moderation whatsoever, which represents another extreme. I assume, though, that they must be enforcing some level of moderation for things like CP, since governments typically, really do not tolerate a no moderation policy in such areas. I would say that being on this extreme end, Telegram has actually opened itself up to government scrutiny. If there had been some form of responsible moderation, governments might not have found enough grounds to justify their actions. The absence of any moderation means that governments can use full force and indeed justify it, potentially damaging the very area of free speech that Telegram aims to protect.
perchlorate 2y ago
[flagged]
- slater 2y ago
  [flagged]
a0123 2y ago
This and the sexual blackmail the network fully permits. Although it's my understanding they have been doing slightly better when it comes down to children (the fact it was made possible in the first place is unbelievable though). Not counting the pro-Israeli channels posting details of anti-genocide activists and encouraging violence (and sometimes openly putting bounties on activists' heads). All constantly reported yet no action is taken. There have been so many things this guy has allowed for years, believing he could act (or fail to act) with total impunity because of his fortune. Hell, he got offered a French passport because Macron used to be a big Telegram fan (might still be). It's absolutely incredible he was so brazen he would just travel to France because there is absolutely no way he wasn't aware he could be held liable (especially considering recent EU legislation), he probably just believed he was above the law.
hintymad 2y ago
Wouldn't in this case the culprit is that Georgia didn't have rule of law? Yes, Telegram didn't help and ignored your plea, but prosecuting the owner for the presumed malice? I'm not sure how that will go well in the long run.
- gck1 2y ago
  Well, it's complicated. In our case, we don't have the rule of law (my legal case was dismissed, unsurprisingly), but then the technology that is supposedly moderation-free because it provides free speech to dissenting voices (I'm assuming that's the justification), becomes a tool of the government itself—the only people who get hurt are those dissenting voices. We don't use Telegram for communication, or at least it's strongly advocated against, including by me - because I've always viewed Telegram as malicious. There's a longstanding belief that it's E2EE, while it's only so under special circumstances, and Telegram holds the keys. I view insecure defaults as malicious, especially when you're advocating the network as very secure. So in the end, dissenting voices have no use for the tool and only the government does. I do agree that prosecuting the owner is quite a big deal, but France has the rule of law. Durov faces up to 20 years in prison. While I don’t wish for him to be incarcerated for that long, if this situation serves as a wake-up call and prompts him to reconsider his app’s approach to moderation, it could be a win for everyone.
Grammrr 2y ago
And what app was used by the protestors to communicate with one another?
- gck1 2y ago
  I've been recommending Signal to anyone potentially targeted for years. Almost everyone aware of being a target has used, and continues to use, Signal. Those not specifically targeted are at least well-informed about its importance. However, during protests, the government sometimes jams the network, or perhaps the cell towers simply fail under the load of thousands of people in a concentrated area - rendering Signal unusable. Consequently, we needed a peer-to-peer messaging solution, but couldn't find a suitable one. During the protests, we were essentially left without any means of digital communication and had to rely solely on verbal one. We couldn't use Briar due to the mix of iOS and Android devices here. Cross-platform compatibility is a must. And we never got Bridgefy to work at all in our tests. With more protests possibly on the horizon depending on the outcome of the October elections this year, I'm on the lookout for a cross-platform messaging app that can function without internet connectivity. If anyone has recommendations for such an app, or other suggestions, please share them with me :)
mrtksn 2y ago
No moderation + anonymity is very nasty. IMHO people unfairly come on you about your expectation for moderation. What often happens is, you lose your anonymity and get personally attacked by people in position of impunity. That should not be a thing.
oytis 2y ago
Didn't protesters use Telegram for coordination as well? Lack of moderation sure hits both ways, but is the balance really in favour of governments? I'd be surprised if this is the case.

by gck1 2y ago

Svoka 2y ago

Unfortunately telegram actively engaging with russian govenment. Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool itself.

foverzar 2y ago
> Since 2022 it became nothing but a propaganda tool itself. How can it possibly be "a propaganda tool" when it has no feed, no algorithms, no suggestions or recommendations? You only get sources you've willingly subscribed to, nothing else. This reads as such a cope.
- Svoka 2y ago
  Telegram has also absolutely no filters, so it can be filled with lies and propaganda without any response from the platform, except, only if it is russian government making requests. Your responses remind me of russian bot playbooks, tbh. Are you one?
  - foverzar 2y ago
    > Telegram has also absolutely no filters Your own head should be your filter. This is literally craving for Big Brother. > so it can be filled with lies and propaganda without any response from the platform So does any other platform with the only difference being that it's the "right" kind of lies and propaganda that would also be shown down your throat with the rest of your feed. The cope is real. > only if it is russian government making requests Says who? > Your responses remind me of russian bot playbooks, tbh. Are you one? Well of course they do, and of course I am. Everyone knows that everyone who doesn't share your opinions and perspectives in 2024 isn't even worth of being considered a human being, duh!

mmsc 2y ago

In case anybody was wondering, OP is talking about Georgia the country.

honksillet 2y ago
[flagged]
- mmsc 2y ago
  Canada is not "a semi-autocratic country on the verge of becoming a dictatorship."
  - compiler-devel 2y ago
    It isn’t? I’m sure the railway workers who were just forced back to work would disagree.
    - mmsc 2y ago
      I'm sure if those workers picked up a dictionary and looked up the word dictatorship, they would agree. They have a vote. One person does not rule the country.
      - compiler-devel 2y ago
        They don't need a dictionary to tell them that they're not oppressed when the reality in front of their faces says otherwise.

floam 2y ago

Ukraine? That’s the only context I’ve read the term titushkis. But those were used against Euromaiden protesters and with what happened since, plus the given n month timelines, that just doesn’t make sense.

gck1 2y ago
Georgia. They used same tactics, so that's why I also call them titushkis.
Svoka 2y ago
Titushki is tool of russian world politicians to deal with descent. They are used all over the place.

cypress66 2y ago

What you call moderation is also a tool dictatorships use to censor people. It goes both ways.

bryant 2y ago
> What you call moderation is also a tool dictatorships use to censor people. It goes both ways. The veracity of this claim aside, posting this as a reply to someone who just shared their own experience getting doxxed in a country where victims have legitimate grounds to fear for their lives... feels a little out of place. Also, usually the dictatorships abuse the censors once their grasp is firm. Until then, they're typically abusing the lack of censorship for their own ends. We see that here in the US with troll farms abusing limited content moderation around misinformation to sway public opinion with falsehoods. Countries are trying to pull the US election in both directions right now this way.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago
  > Posting this as a reply to someone who just shared their own experience getting doxxed in a country where victims have legitimate grounds to fear for their lives... feels a little out of place. They should pick a bone with their country’s government that allows such thing to happen, not Telegram.
  - gck1 2y ago
    You do realize, that we got on that channel because we're picking a bone with the government, right?
gck1 2y ago
Since perchlorate's comment is now dead, and yours is similar, going to reply here. I do agree to some extent. Having tools to challenge a dictatorship that cannot be silenced can indeed become invaluable. However, there is a significant difference between responsible moderation, which aims to protect individuals' safety, and full-blown censorship. While it can be a slippery slope, the absence of moderation shouldn't leave users defenseless against doxxing and threats, which can have real, harmful, and even deadly consequences. There must be some form of balance. From my experience, it feels like Telegram lacks any moderation whatsoever, which represents another extreme. I assume, though, that they must be enforcing some level of moderation for things like CP, since governments typically, really do not tolerate a no moderation policy in such areas. I would say that being on this extreme end, Telegram has actually opened itself up to government scrutiny. If there had been some form of responsible moderation, governments might not have found enough grounds to justify their actions. The absence of any moderation means that governments can use full force and indeed justify it, potentially damaging the very area of free speech that Telegram aims to protect.

perchlorate 2y ago

[flagged]

slater 2y ago
[flagged]

a0123 2y ago

This and the sexual blackmail the network fully permits. Although it's my understanding they have been doing slightly better when it comes down to children (the fact it was made possible in the first place is unbelievable though). Not counting the pro-Israeli channels posting details of anti-genocide activists and encouraging violence (and sometimes openly putting bounties on activists' heads). All constantly reported yet no action is taken. There have been so many things this guy has allowed for years, believing he could act (or fail to act) with total impunity because of his fortune. Hell, he got offered a French passport because Macron used to be a big Telegram fan (might still be). It's absolutely incredible he was so brazen he would just travel to France because there is absolutely no way he wasn't aware he could be held liable (especially considering recent EU legislation), he probably just believed he was above the law.

hintymad 2y ago

Wouldn't in this case the culprit is that Georgia didn't have rule of law? Yes, Telegram didn't help and ignored your plea, but prosecuting the owner for the presumed malice? I'm not sure how that will go well in the long run.

gck1 2y ago
Well, it's complicated. In our case, we don't have the rule of law (my legal case was dismissed, unsurprisingly), but then the technology that is supposedly moderation-free because it provides free speech to dissenting voices (I'm assuming that's the justification), becomes a tool of the government itself—the only people who get hurt are those dissenting voices. We don't use Telegram for communication, or at least it's strongly advocated against, including by me - because I've always viewed Telegram as malicious. There's a longstanding belief that it's E2EE, while it's only so under special circumstances, and Telegram holds the keys. I view insecure defaults as malicious, especially when you're advocating the network as very secure. So in the end, dissenting voices have no use for the tool and only the government does. I do agree that prosecuting the owner is quite a big deal, but France has the rule of law. Durov faces up to 20 years in prison. While I don’t wish for him to be incarcerated for that long, if this situation serves as a wake-up call and prompts him to reconsider his app’s approach to moderation, it could be a win for everyone.

Grammrr 2y ago

And what app was used by the protestors to communicate with one another?

gck1 2y ago
I've been recommending Signal to anyone potentially targeted for years. Almost everyone aware of being a target has used, and continues to use, Signal. Those not specifically targeted are at least well-informed about its importance. However, during protests, the government sometimes jams the network, or perhaps the cell towers simply fail under the load of thousands of people in a concentrated area - rendering Signal unusable. Consequently, we needed a peer-to-peer messaging solution, but couldn't find a suitable one. During the protests, we were essentially left without any means of digital communication and had to rely solely on verbal one. We couldn't use Briar due to the mix of iOS and Android devices here. Cross-platform compatibility is a must. And we never got Bridgefy to work at all in our tests. With more protests possibly on the horizon depending on the outcome of the October elections this year, I'm on the lookout for a cross-platform messaging app that can function without internet connectivity. If anyone has recommendations for such an app, or other suggestions, please share them with me :)

mrtksn 2y ago

No moderation + anonymity is very nasty. IMHO people unfairly come on you about your expectation for moderation. What often happens is, you lose your anonymity and get personally attacked by people in position of impunity. That should not be a thing.

oytis 2y ago

Didn't protesters use Telegram for coordination as well? Lack of moderation sure hits both ways, but is the balance really in favour of governments? I'd be surprised if this is the case.