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From Telegram sources: >Pavel Durov faces up to 20 years in prison in France. The trial will take place very soon – sources close to the investigation. In addi

by chad1n 2y ago

From Telegram sources: >Pavel Durov faces up to 20 years in prison in France. The trial will take place very soon – sources close to the investigation. In addition to drug trafficking, he is accused of collaborating with an organized crime group, covering up for pedophiles, fraud and money laundering. I don't know how reliable this is, but I've seen in 3-4 sources that he's arrested for terrorism, child abuse, drug trafficking (not providing data to prosecutors).

Oras 2y ago
If it is an encrypted service, how would the company censor and tackle these issues? I’m asking from a technical standpoint.
- codedokode 2y ago
  Telegram has public and private groups. They probably want to jail him for not pre-moderating every posted message.
  - Oras 2y ago
    That’s my question, if messages are end to end encrypted then the company does not have access to censor, right?
    - codedokode 2y ago
      Messages in groups are not E2E encrypted, especially in public groups where anyone can read them even without joining. However, anyone can report the message to moderators. The public groups are often limited (temporarily removed from search, temporarily or permanently banned) if they do too much violations.
      - Gualdrapo 2y ago
        > However, anyone can report the message to moderators. Good luck with that. And that's a seriously big issue. Moderators (and "moderators" in Telegram mean an alleged team of people they hire to moderate all content in Telegram - if you report content, the group administrators won't even be notified about that so they can act by themselves first) in most cases won't do absolutely anything.
    - skyyler 2y ago
      The messages are not end to end encrypted. There is a feature that can be enabled to create an end-to-end encrypted chat between strictly two users, but most people do not actually use it. Telegram is largely a social network masquerading as a messaging app. There is a deep network of “channels” that interlink with each other to provide a community for users. None of that is encrypted.
    - a0123 2y ago
      That's how successful Telegram's PR has been. People believe - like you do - that it's end to end encrypted. It's not. The secret chats presumably are (if you trust Telegram). Secret chats are 1 to 1. So anything outside of those that most people on Telegram access (massive channels and groups, smaller groups, private groups and channels) is NOT encrypted.
      - codedokode 2y ago
        Sorry for whataboutism, but Apple does the same thing. It claims in advertising that all cloud backups are "encrypted", but if you dig deeper, "encrypted" means "encrypted with a key that is stored in the cloud" (see the table in [1]). Apple also (exactly like Telegram) requires you to opt-in for E2E encryption of backups, it is not enabled by default and even in this case contact list backup do not support E2E encryption. The article claims that "Contacts and calendars are built on industry standards (CalDAV and CardDAV) that do not provide built-in support for end-to-end encryption." but it seems like a weak argument. Nobody actually cares what protocol is used between a device and a cloud. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
  It is not encrypted by default. By default, everything goes through Telegram servers and can be read there.
  - consumer451 2y ago
    I have always assumed that Telegram was a Russian op. Any doubts I had were resolved by this event. [0] > Deputy Russian State Duma Speaker Vladislav Davankov said he had sent an appeal to Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov to seek Durov's release. > "His arrest may be politically motivated and a tool to gain access to the personal information of Telegram users. This must not be allowed," the state-run RIA Novosti news agency quoted Davankov as saying. [0] https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/08/25/telegram-boss-pavel-durov-detained-in-france-french-media-a86138 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/08/25/telegram-boss-pave...
    - codedokode 2y ago
      Wikipedia says that the same member of Duma was suggesting an idea to abolish homework at schools because his son asked for this when he learned that his father was elected. I would not treat him seriously.
      - consumer451 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - nullifidian 2y ago
      "Vladislav Davankov" is a token "liberal". He's supposed to make such statements. Nothing that is uttered by Duma members is worth any consideration -- it's a complete theater.
codedokode 2y ago
If he intentionally cooperated with criminals then it is one thing. But if someone posted something illegal, and nobody reported this, then it obviously is not Durov's fault. If you are too lazy to report illegal content then you should arrest yourselves first.
- chucke1992 2y ago
  Basically as he did not provide access to the encrypted messages and communication in Telegram, they accused him for supporting the criminals. That's all to it. It is basically the part of the current politics in EU where they are trying to force access to all encrypted traffic across devices.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mdhb 2y ago
    Do you have any proof of this whatsoever or are you just making this up?
    - evilfred 2y ago
      just one google away https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
      - a0123 2y ago
        Yeah, and do you think France is going to arrest Durov on the Kremlin's request. Fun fact: the Russian government and high ranking officials are outraged by the arrest and are asking the Russian state to pressure France into releasing him. It's one google away. Before you blame this one on Russia too.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
alex00 2y ago
The extent of the accusations is evidence that all that is made up in order to get access into Telegram. Telegram is too important to the other side in the Ukraine war. If Telegram goes, then the other side is silenced.
- evilfred 2y ago
  by "other side" you mean "invaders of their sovereign neighbour"
  - alex00 2y ago
    Ukraine is being played in this proxy war. We are dumping them as soon as they are of no use to us. Like many times before.
- whamlastxmas 2y ago
  Somehow I think Russia is perfectly capable of making a telegram clone
phtrivier 2y ago
I would be very surprised if the _trial_ was to take place "very soon". (Trials hardly ever take place "very soon" in France.) However, I could imagine him staying in custody while being investigated for a couple days, then quickly facing some level of judge to decide whether he has to stay in jail or can be released. Once this is done, don't expect a formal trial until multiple months (and most realistically, at least a year.)
- qingcharles 2y ago
  He's a super high flight risk, so I'm thinking the prosecution is going to make a pretty solid case for him staying in pre-trial until trial in a year or two. He's gonna have a very miserable time. Flying private jet --> watching another man shitting next to you.
  - maxo133 2y ago
    Yes and the DGSE agents visiting every week or so giving him an release offer you can't refuse.
  - phtrivier 2y ago
    Well, he'll only have to see them twice a week now [1]: he's been officially charged, then released (under bail), has to check in regularly, and can't leave the country. I don't know if that counts as "due process" for everyone ? [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/08/28/le-pdg-de-telegram-pavel-durov-mis-en-examen-et-remis-en-liberte-sous-controle-judiciaire-avec-interdiction-de-quitter-le-territoire-francais_6298006_3224.html https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/08/28/le-pdg-de-...
- a0123 2y ago
  About the custody thing, he's an extremely high flight risk. If the French authorities are serious about his arrest and it's not just a dumb PR move, there is absolutely no chance he's going to be released. Not without 24/7 police surveillance and giving up on all this passports.
- raverbashing 2y ago
qingcharles 2y ago
The trial will take place soon? That seems very unlikely. I don't think France has a statutory number of days in their speedy trial right, so even if you demand trial as you walk in the door, for a serious trial of this size, with this many charges, my experience is saying one to two years for trial. Now, France does have more rights on pre-trial detention, so he might be able to get some sort of bail, but he's an enormously high flight risk, so.. maybe not.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  How often is bail completely denied in France?
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    I have no specific data, and Europe has slightly better bail rights than most of the USA, but I would think for this list of charges and his flight risk a judge would have qualms or problems denying bail.
    - qingcharles 2y ago
      I meant to type "no qualms"
  - nephanth 2y ago
    "Bail" (as in you give money instead of being detained) isn't common in France (although it foes exist in French law).

by chad1n 2y ago

Oras 2y ago

If it is an encrypted service, how would the company censor and tackle these issues? I’m asking from a technical standpoint.

codedokode 2y ago
Telegram has public and private groups. They probably want to jail him for not pre-moderating every posted message.
- Oras 2y ago
  That’s my question, if messages are end to end encrypted then the company does not have access to censor, right?
  - codedokode 2y ago
    Messages in groups are not E2E encrypted, especially in public groups where anyone can read them even without joining. However, anyone can report the message to moderators. The public groups are often limited (temporarily removed from search, temporarily or permanently banned) if they do too much violations.
    - Gualdrapo 2y ago
      > However, anyone can report the message to moderators. Good luck with that. And that's a seriously big issue. Moderators (and "moderators" in Telegram mean an alleged team of people they hire to moderate all content in Telegram - if you report content, the group administrators won't even be notified about that so they can act by themselves first) in most cases won't do absolutely anything.
  - skyyler 2y ago
    The messages are not end to end encrypted. There is a feature that can be enabled to create an end-to-end encrypted chat between strictly two users, but most people do not actually use it. Telegram is largely a social network masquerading as a messaging app. There is a deep network of “channels” that interlink with each other to provide a community for users. None of that is encrypted.
  - a0123 2y ago
    That's how successful Telegram's PR has been. People believe - like you do - that it's end to end encrypted. It's not. The secret chats presumably are (if you trust Telegram). Secret chats are 1 to 1. So anything outside of those that most people on Telegram access (massive channels and groups, smaller groups, private groups and channels) is NOT encrypted.
    - codedokode 2y ago
      Sorry for whataboutism, but Apple does the same thing. It claims in advertising that all cloud backups are "encrypted", but if you dig deeper, "encrypted" means "encrypted with a key that is stored in the cloud" (see the table in [1]). Apple also (exactly like Telegram) requires you to opt-in for E2E encryption of backups, it is not enabled by default and even in this case contact list backup do not support E2E encryption. The article claims that "Contacts and calendars are built on industry standards (CalDAV and CardDAV) that do not provide built-in support for end-to-end encryption." but it seems like a weak argument. Nobody actually cares what protocol is used between a device and a cloud. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
It is not encrypted by default. By default, everything goes through Telegram servers and can be read there.
- consumer451 2y ago
  I have always assumed that Telegram was a Russian op. Any doubts I had were resolved by this event. [0] > Deputy Russian State Duma Speaker Vladislav Davankov said he had sent an appeal to Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov to seek Durov's release. > "His arrest may be politically motivated and a tool to gain access to the personal information of Telegram users. This must not be allowed," the state-run RIA Novosti news agency quoted Davankov as saying. [0] https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/08/25/telegram-boss-pavel-durov-detained-in-france-french-media-a86138 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/08/25/telegram-boss-pave...
  - codedokode 2y ago
    Wikipedia says that the same member of Duma was suggesting an idea to abolish homework at schools because his son asked for this when he learned that his father was elected. I would not treat him seriously.
    - consumer451 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - nullifidian 2y ago
    "Vladislav Davankov" is a token "liberal". He's supposed to make such statements. Nothing that is uttered by Duma members is worth any consideration -- it's a complete theater.

codedokode 2y ago

If he intentionally cooperated with criminals then it is one thing. But if someone posted something illegal, and nobody reported this, then it obviously is not Durov's fault. If you are too lazy to report illegal content then you should arrest yourselves first.

chucke1992 2y ago
Basically as he did not provide access to the encrypted messages and communication in Telegram, they accused him for supporting the criminals. That's all to it. It is basically the part of the current politics in EU where they are trying to force access to all encrypted traffic across devices.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mdhb 2y ago
  Do you have any proof of this whatsoever or are you just making this up?
  - evilfred 2y ago
    just one google away https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
    - a0123 2y ago
      Yeah, and do you think France is going to arrest Durov on the Kremlin's request. Fun fact: the Russian government and high ranking officials are outraged by the arrest and are asking the Russian state to pressure France into releasing him. It's one google away. Before you blame this one on Russia too.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

alex00 2y ago

The extent of the accusations is evidence that all that is made up in order to get access into Telegram. Telegram is too important to the other side in the Ukraine war. If Telegram goes, then the other side is silenced.

evilfred 2y ago
by "other side" you mean "invaders of their sovereign neighbour"
- alex00 2y ago
  Ukraine is being played in this proxy war. We are dumping them as soon as they are of no use to us. Like many times before.
whamlastxmas 2y ago
Somehow I think Russia is perfectly capable of making a telegram clone

phtrivier 2y ago

I would be very surprised if the _trial_ was to take place "very soon". (Trials hardly ever take place "very soon" in France.) However, I could imagine him staying in custody while being investigated for a couple days, then quickly facing some level of judge to decide whether he has to stay in jail or can be released. Once this is done, don't expect a formal trial until multiple months (and most realistically, at least a year.)

qingcharles 2y ago
He's a super high flight risk, so I'm thinking the prosecution is going to make a pretty solid case for him staying in pre-trial until trial in a year or two. He's gonna have a very miserable time. Flying private jet --> watching another man shitting next to you.
- maxo133 2y ago
  Yes and the DGSE agents visiting every week or so giving him an release offer you can't refuse.
- phtrivier 2y ago
  Well, he'll only have to see them twice a week now [1]: he's been officially charged, then released (under bail), has to check in regularly, and can't leave the country. I don't know if that counts as "due process" for everyone ? [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/08/28/le-pdg-de-telegram-pavel-durov-mis-en-examen-et-remis-en-liberte-sous-controle-judiciaire-avec-interdiction-de-quitter-le-territoire-francais_6298006_3224.html https://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2024/08/28/le-pdg-de-...
a0123 2y ago
About the custody thing, he's an extremely high flight risk. If the French authorities are serious about his arrest and it's not just a dumb PR move, there is absolutely no chance he's going to be released. Not without 24/7 police surveillance and giving up on all this passports.
raverbashing 2y ago

qingcharles 2y ago

The trial will take place soon? That seems very unlikely. I don't think France has a statutory number of days in their speedy trial right, so even if you demand trial as you walk in the door, for a serious trial of this size, with this many charges, my experience is saying one to two years for trial. Now, France does have more rights on pre-trial detention, so he might be able to get some sort of bail, but he's an enormously high flight risk, so.. maybe not.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
How often is bail completely denied in France?
- qingcharles 2y ago
  I have no specific data, and Europe has slightly better bail rights than most of the USA, but I would think for this list of charges and his flight risk a judge would have qualms or problems denying bail.
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    I meant to type "no qualms"
- nephanth 2y ago
  "Bail" (as in you give money instead of being detained) isn't common in France (although it foes exist in French law).