4 ms·

I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?

by eshvk 14y ago

eli 14y ago
No. The manager has grossly misunderstood corporate policy.
- kevinpet 14y ago
  Has Apple said this? Or are you just guessing?
  - eli 14y ago
    Most of the debate going on in comments here is about selling to a hypothetical Iranian visiting the US. But that's not what actually happened here -- the customer is a US citizen. I am pretty confident that it is Apple policy to sell equipment to US citizens in US stores regardless of their ancestry.
waterlesscloud 14y ago
Yes. It seems this falls under "deemed export" concept, where controlled technology is "deemed" to be exported just by a foreign national having contact with it. http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf "Once such information is released to a foreign national, it is deemed to have been exported to that person’s country of nationality. Under both the EAR and the ITAR, the deemed export rule applies to technology (and, in some cases, software) transfers to a foreign national, if the technology (or software) to which the foreign national is exposed relates to the development, production, disposal, or use of items controlled under either the EAR or the ITAR. " Now, whether this applies to ipads and iphones, I have no idea.
- eshvk 14y ago
  If that does apply to electronics like the iPad/iPhone, it is pretty retarded. It requires a significant degree of knowledge of citizenship law on the part of the sales personnel. Also, it is pretty hard to verify citizenship without getting into same breach of privacy that the Arizona law (SB1070) fell into. Lastly, how are you as a merchant supposed to enforce such controls in an electronic transaction?
  - lutorm 14y ago
    I think that what the US government would say is that if you choose to sell export-controlled technologies, then it is your responsibility to follow the law. If you can't verify that you are following the law in an electronic transaction, then you either have to take the risk of getting convicted or not sell online. The bizarre part here is that an ipad falls under export-controlled equipment.
    - waterlesscloud 14y ago
      The only way I can mentally justify something like an ipad falling under the law would be if the point was to keep the Iranian government from legally buying 10000 of them to make some kind of supercomputer. Which seems pretty unlikely as I type it out. But under than scenario, a few escaping here and there is tolerable, but it would be worth preventing massive numbers of them being sold to a foreign nation. Of course, since the devices are manufactured in China, there are a few questions being begged.
      - eshvk 14y ago
        > The only way I can mentally justify something like an ipad falling under the law would be if the point was to keep the Iranian government from legally buying 10000 of them to make some kind of supercomputer. Which seems pretty unlikely as I type it out. I think the way these laws are designed, they cover a swathe of computing devices that could potentially be used to aid the military. IIRC around 10 years back, when India and Pakistan decided to test nukes, the apple G5 was one of the things that got banned from export to those countries. > But under than scenario, a few escaping here and there is tolerable, but it would be worth preventing massive numbers of them being sold to a foreign nation. The key of course is how lenient DHS or whoever would be in this situation. If the act of coming into contact with an iPad/Any such device is an export control violation, how on earth does one hire Iranian citizens in tech (I know a large number of Iranian citizens come here to the US to study and work) for say iPad app development. Also, what happens in the situation that I want to sell my used iPad on eBay/CL?

I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?

by eshvk 14y ago

I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?

eli 14y ago

No. The manager has grossly misunderstood corporate policy.

kevinpet 14y ago
Has Apple said this? Or are you just guessing?
- eli 14y ago
  Most of the debate going on in comments here is about selling to a hypothetical Iranian visiting the US. But that's not what actually happened here -- the customer is a US citizen. I am pretty confident that it is Apple policy to sell equipment to US citizens in US stores regardless of their ancestry.

waterlesscloud 14y ago

Yes. It seems this falls under "deemed export" concept, where controlled technology is "deemed" to be exported just by a foreign national having contact with it. http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf "Once such information is released to a foreign national, it is deemed to have been exported to that person’s country of nationality. Under both the EAR and the ITAR, the deemed export rule applies to technology (and, in some cases, software) transfers to a foreign national, if the technology (or software) to which the foreign national is exposed relates to the development, production, disposal, or use of items controlled under either the EAR or the ITAR. " Now, whether this applies to ipads and iphones, I have no idea.

eshvk 14y ago
If that does apply to electronics like the iPad/iPhone, it is pretty retarded. It requires a significant degree of knowledge of citizenship law on the part of the sales personnel. Also, it is pretty hard to verify citizenship without getting into same breach of privacy that the Arizona law (SB1070) fell into. Lastly, how are you as a merchant supposed to enforce such controls in an electronic transaction?
- lutorm 14y ago
  I think that what the US government would say is that if you choose to sell export-controlled technologies, then it is your responsibility to follow the law. If you can't verify that you are following the law in an electronic transaction, then you either have to take the risk of getting convicted or not sell online. The bizarre part here is that an ipad falls under export-controlled equipment.
  - waterlesscloud 14y ago
    The only way I can mentally justify something like an ipad falling under the law would be if the point was to keep the Iranian government from legally buying 10000 of them to make some kind of supercomputer. Which seems pretty unlikely as I type it out. But under than scenario, a few escaping here and there is tolerable, but it would be worth preventing massive numbers of them being sold to a foreign nation. Of course, since the devices are manufactured in China, there are a few questions being begged.
    - eshvk 14y ago
      > The only way I can mentally justify something like an ipad falling under the law would be if the point was to keep the Iranian government from legally buying 10000 of them to make some kind of supercomputer. Which seems pretty unlikely as I type it out. I think the way these laws are designed, they cover a swathe of computing devices that could potentially be used to aid the military. IIRC around 10 years back, when India and Pakistan decided to test nukes, the apple G5 was one of the things that got banned from export to those countries. > But under than scenario, a few escaping here and there is tolerable, but it would be worth preventing massive numbers of them being sold to a foreign nation. The key of course is how lenient DHS or whoever would be in this situation. If the act of coming into contact with an iPad/Any such device is an export control violation, how on earth does one hire Iranian citizens in tech (I know a large number of Iranian citizens come here to the US to study and work) for say iPad app development. Also, what happens in the situation that I want to sell my used iPad on eBay/CL?