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There's no much talk of historical claims on Gaza from Israelis besides very fringe groups who don't number a lot of people. They're certainly quite obnoxious,

There's no much talk of historical claims on Gaza from Israelis besides very fringe groups who don't number a lot of people. They're certainly quite obnoxious, these groups. But they can't be called "fringe" anymore, now that they've been made coalition partners in the 37th government (receiving very prominent cabinet positions to boot). Meanwhile Israel's expansionist claims on the West Bank have been the de-facto national consensus (and have been supported by every government to one degree or another) since the late 70s. If there are major historical claims they mostly come from the Palestinian side These aren't "claims" coming from their side as it has always been their land to begin with.

weatherlite 2y ago
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- dunekid 2y ago
  What is the complication in West Bank? It is under occupation by all means. And also under apartheid. Occupying West Bank completely might also be just fringe ideas, that are not worth paying attention to? Is it the complication of Smotrich price-tagging Palestinians by creating as many illegal occupations as the number of countries recognising the Palestinian people's lives?
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it into the next parliament because he's leaking tons of voters). Curiously, the most religious Israelis (the ultra orthodox) generally don't care about the settlements at all. Now dismantling the settlements would be very hard now but that's much more due to a reluctance of most Israelis to see a Palestinian state in the West Bank due to fear for their security - not out of love for the settlements. If conditions for peace ever arrive I don't think the majority of Israelis would have a problem to dismantle them (Israel already did dismantle quite a few settlements in the past, also in the West Bank). But yeah we'll cross the 'peace bridge' when we get there.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. No "mainstream support"? It's run as an administrative area of the State of Israel, "administered by the Israel Defense Forces Central Command, and military law is applied": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area
      - weatherlite 2y ago
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    - deleted 2y ago
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    - aguaviva 2y ago
      We also have e.g.: When it comes to Jewish settlements in the West Bank, 40% of the public say they help Israeli national security, while 35% say they hurt. An additional 21% think settlements don’t make much difference to the country’s security. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-and-violence-in-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-an... Plus there's the fact that the country, despite all its internal divisions, managed to put a certain Benjamin Netanyahu -- who has declared the expansion of the settlements to be a "top priority" -- in office 3 times (for some 17 years total so far). And all the mainstream society hate for Oslo and 2SS, and so on. These are just a few of many obvious indicators. Of course many feel conflicted about the settlements, and only support them the perceived "security" advantages, and so on. But it's just not tenable to say that the settlements "don't really have mainstream support". When by all indications, the imperative to support and maintain them has been national consensus for several decades now.
      - runarberg 2y ago
        This is all on top of the fact that these settlements—even without expansion—are unambiguously breaking international law. Popular support against it—real or not—does not make this more complicated. A politician who does not support dismantling these settlements, return the land to Palestinians, and pay reparations, is obviously wrong. This describes almost all Israeli politicians, and is not fringe, nor complicated. The existence of politicians who go further only complicates matter in making things worse by providing a possibility for illegal policy not only maintained, but also expanded. That said, I agree with you, I don’t believe this is only a fringe position that has no relevance on current or future policy which breaks international law.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  I meant there are no real intentions to settle Gaza with settlers, not in government or civil society. In front of an impassioned audience of thousands of right-wing activists, 11 government ministers and 15 coalition lawmakers pledged Sunday night to rebuild Jewish Israeli settlements in the heart of the Gaza Strip, with some also encouraging the emigration of the Palestinian population after the war with Hamas is over. Speaking amid a carnival-like atmosphere at the Jerusalem International Convention Center, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, the leader of the ultranationalist Religious Zionism party, extolled the virtues of creating new settlements, declaring: “God willing, we will settle and we will be victorious.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/12-ministers-call-to-resettle-gaza-encourage-gazans-to-leave-at-jubilant-conference/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/12-ministers-call-to-resettle-...

weatherlite 2y ago

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dunekid 2y ago
What is the complication in West Bank? It is under occupation by all means. And also under apartheid. Occupying West Bank completely might also be just fringe ideas, that are not worth paying attention to? Is it the complication of Smotrich price-tagging Palestinians by creating as many illegal occupations as the number of countries recognising the Palestinian people's lives?
- weatherlite 2y ago
  By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. There's a very powerful national religious minority that is able to keep them alive but that's more due to political deadlock than due to widespread support (I'm not arguing some support exists but its not huge, and Smotrich btw is expected not to make it into the next parliament because he's leaking tons of voters). Curiously, the most religious Israelis (the ultra orthodox) generally don't care about the settlements at all. Now dismantling the settlements would be very hard now but that's much more due to a reluctance of most Israelis to see a Palestinian state in the West Bank due to fear for their security - not out of love for the settlements. If conditions for peace ever arrive I don't think the majority of Israelis would have a problem to dismantle them (Israel already did dismantle quite a few settlements in the past, also in the West Bank). But yeah we'll cross the 'peace bridge' when we get there.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    By saying its more complicated I meant to say that the settlements in the West Bank don't really have mainstream support in Israel as the parent comment suggested. No "mainstream support"? It's run as an administrative area of the State of Israel, "administered by the Israel Defense Forces Central Command, and military law is applied": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_and_Samaria_Area
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    We also have e.g.: When it comes to Jewish settlements in the West Bank, 40% of the public say they help Israeli national security, while 35% say they hurt. An additional 21% think settlements don’t make much difference to the country’s security. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-and-violence-in-the-west-bank-and-east-jerusalem/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/settlements-an... Plus there's the fact that the country, despite all its internal divisions, managed to put a certain Benjamin Netanyahu -- who has declared the expansion of the settlements to be a "top priority" -- in office 3 times (for some 17 years total so far). And all the mainstream society hate for Oslo and 2SS, and so on. These are just a few of many obvious indicators. Of course many feel conflicted about the settlements, and only support them the perceived "security" advantages, and so on. But it's just not tenable to say that the settlements "don't really have mainstream support". When by all indications, the imperative to support and maintain them has been national consensus for several decades now.
    - runarberg 2y ago
      This is all on top of the fact that these settlements—even without expansion—are unambiguously breaking international law. Popular support against it—real or not—does not make this more complicated. A politician who does not support dismantling these settlements, return the land to Palestinians, and pay reparations, is obviously wrong. This describes almost all Israeli politicians, and is not fringe, nor complicated. The existence of politicians who go further only complicates matter in making things worse by providing a possibility for illegal policy not only maintained, but also expanded. That said, I agree with you, I don’t believe this is only a fringe position that has no relevance on current or future policy which breaks international law.
aguaviva 2y ago
I meant there are no real intentions to settle Gaza with settlers, not in government or civil society. In front of an impassioned audience of thousands of right-wing activists, 11 government ministers and 15 coalition lawmakers pledged Sunday night to rebuild Jewish Israeli settlements in the heart of the Gaza Strip, with some also encouraging the emigration of the Palestinian population after the war with Hamas is over. Speaking amid a carnival-like atmosphere at the Jerusalem International Convention Center, Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, the leader of the ultranationalist Religious Zionism party, extolled the virtues of creating new settlements, declaring: “God willing, we will settle and we will be victorious.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/12-ministers-call-to-resettle-gaza-encourage-gazans-to-leave-at-jubilant-conference/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/12-ministers-call-to-resettle-...