11 ms·

Customer: Apple Store denied me iPad for speaking Farsi

131 points by ghurlman 14y ago

spwert 14y ago
The only person in the wrong here is the customer service representative who's violating US sanctions against Iran by selling an iPad to an Iranian citizen. e: can't read, see below.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  Did you miss the "Sabet is a U.S. citizen" in the article?
  - spwert 14y ago
    Whoops. Yes I did.
    - Ralith 14y ago
      However, it seems pretty clear that the Apple employee interpreted Sabet's words "I'm from Iran" as meaning "I am an Iranian citizen." This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, and there's no indication that Sabet made any effort to communicate her citizenship.
  - Turing_Machine 14y ago
    There's no mention of her telling the clerk that she was a U.S. citizen. She told him "I'm from Iran". What's he supposed to do in that case? Can't blame him for not taking the risk. That's a serious federal law (and it's not unheard of for the feds to run sting operations, when it comes down to that). The other guy was definitely trying to buy the device for an Iranian citizen.
    - Quizzy 14y ago
      The Federal Law says nothing about selling to a person who has no intention of bringing the item back to Iran, but simply has either a Farsi accent or was born in Iran. There was no mention of an Apple policy that requires its employees to ask "What is your citizenship?", but instead automatically assume nationality based on the comment "I'm from Iran." If the onus is on the consumer to clearly state his citizenship, then shouldn't there be a sign that lists the legal conditions of purchase? I am most bothered by the fact that the Apple rep recognized Farsi and inquired further. So is it pure coincidence that the Apple rep knows Farsi or is every Apple retailer trained to recognize Farsi? And even if the Apple rep recognizes Farsi and inquires further, what if the consumer lies and says "no, I'm speaking Hindi", then what? Polygraph test? Bring in an interpreter? Call security to escort them out? Apple is walking down a very slippery slope here.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
appleRecist 14y ago
this is complete example of racism.
- sohn2 14y ago
  Or maybe elitism.
  - astrodust 14y ago
    Or "eltism" to follow that example.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  You created an account for this? And didn't even spell racist right? Wow.
- jcromartie 14y ago
  It's racist to jump to the conclusion that someone speaking the language of Iran might be Iranian? I'd say that's a reasonable (if incorrect) assumption to make.
  - Ralith 14y ago
    It wasn't even incorrect: her own words were "I'm from Iran." It's obvious that the Apple employee made the perfectly reasonable interpretation that this described her citizenship.
    - chris_wot 14y ago
      What's untrue about that statement? She is from Iran! Now she is a U.S. citizen.
      - Ralith 14y ago
        Nothing is untrue about it. Obviously, there was a miscommunication, and the woman decided to go scream "Racism!" to the presses instead of clearing it up. Edit: Oh, I see, you thought I was asserting that she was of Iranian citizenship. I understood the parent of my original post to be referring to her being of Iranian race, because she appears to be trying to make it out as a race issue, when in truth it is a citizenship issue.
joelhaasnoot 14y ago
Who on earth decided that when a foreign citizen is on US soil, selling to them consitutes "exporting"? What if he's a refugee or has dual citizenships? To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  It sounds like these situations are more complicated than that. http://distributioninsider.electronicproducts.com/articles/export-security.php http://distributioninsider.electronicproducts.com/articles/e... "Similarly, sharing documents containing technical data with non-U.S. persons, either overseas or in the states, without export authorization would be an ITAR violation. “There are very few people who understand that an illegal export can be as simple as discussing design and technical information over lunch, if the person you are dining with is a non-U.S. person,”
  - mturmon 14y ago
    Note, however, that ITAR is not the same thing as EAR. They are two different laws pertaining to two different "export" situations (both with serious penalties for breaking).
    - excuse-me 14y ago
      In my experience the system is: Senior representatives from the european and US partnering aerospace companies sit in a big boardroom with their respective legal team and discuss what they can and cannot discuss. Actually they generally get no further than discussing if they can discuss what they can or can't discuss. Meanwhile the American and British engineers go for a quiet coffee on their own (preferably off site) and sort out any technical questions between them without anything being written down. The French engineers from the european company have to sit in the corner and sulk. German/Dutch engineers sit there looking extremely confused as to why all this is necessary.
- pash 14y ago
  > To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general. Unfortunately not. The relevant definition of "export" is the one at Export Administration Regulations § 734.2(b)(2)(ii): (2) Export of technology or software. ...: (i) Any release of technology or software subject to the EAR in a foreign country; or (ii) Any release of technology or source code subject to the EAR to a foreign national. Such release is deemed to be an export to the home country or countries of the foreign national. This deemed export rule does not apply to persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States and does not apply to persons who are protected individuals under the Immigration and Naturalization Act (8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)). Note that the release of any item to any party with knowledge a violation is about to occur is prohibited by §736.2(b)(10) of the EAR. [0] Apple's interpretation is the one almost all export-control lawyers will give their clients and is the one the Bureau of Industry and Security will give you if you ask for clarification. EDIT: By the way, the reason Apple won't/can't sell iPads to foreigners in the US but can sell them the same product abroad likely comes down to paperwork. I am not Apple's lawyer, but I imagine Apple exports iPads under a provision of the export-control regulations that allows export of (a great many) controlled products without needing to obtain a license so long as the use of the regulatory licensing exception is properly noted on the export documentation. But Apple's retail stores presumably are not equipped to fill out and submit those documents, so they simply won't/can't sell to foreigners. 0. http://www.bis.doc.gov/policiesandregulations/ear/734.pdf http://www.bis.doc.gov/policiesandregulations/ear/734.pdf [PDF]
pdeuchler 14y ago
Just an idiot that's part of a large corporation wrongly trying to enforce a policy that doesn't apply (and is probably not his to enforce). It is clearly not Apple's true policy, as the woman in question was eventually able to purchase her iPad online. Regardless of the calculus behind the employee's decision, I can't help but wonder if this story would be on the frontpage if it was anyone but Apple.
- kevinpet 14y ago
  How does the policy not apply? Is Apple being irrational, or is Apple making their best effort to thread the needle between stupid laws?
  - pdeuchler 14y ago
    Because the women were U.S. citizens, rendering any law about foreign exports (and consequently foreign nationals) moot
- TwiztidK 14y ago
  It's similar to how Apple takes most of the flack for human rights violations at Foxconn when many other companies (including Acer, Intel, HP, Dell, Sony, Toshiba, etc) have their products manufactured by Foxconn as well.
jevinskie 14y ago
These crypto export laws (while better than they were in the 90s) are silly given that crypto approved for top secret material (AES with large keys) is pervasively available on the internet.
- tikhonj 14y ago
  I think this isn't about exporting cryptographic software so much as about not trading with certain countries (e.g. Iran, Cuba or North Korea) at all.
eshvk 14y ago
I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?
- eli 14y ago
  No. The manager has grossly misunderstood corporate policy.
  - kevinpet 14y ago
    Has Apple said this? Or are you just guessing?
    - eli 14y ago
      Most of the debate going on in comments here is about selling to a hypothetical Iranian visiting the US. But that's not what actually happened here -- the customer is a US citizen. I am pretty confident that it is Apple policy to sell equipment to US citizens in US stores regardless of their ancestry.
- waterlesscloud 14y ago
  Yes. It seems this falls under "deemed export" concept, where controlled technology is "deemed" to be exported just by a foreign national having contact with it. http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf "Once such information is released to a foreign national, it is deemed to have been exported to that person’s country of nationality. Under both the EAR and the ITAR, the deemed export rule applies to technology (and, in some cases, software) transfers to a foreign national, if the technology (or software) to which the foreign national is exposed relates to the development, production, disposal, or use of items controlled under either the EAR or the ITAR. " Now, whether this applies to ipads and iphones, I have no idea.
  - eshvk 14y ago
    If that does apply to electronics like the iPad/iPhone, it is pretty retarded. It requires a significant degree of knowledge of citizenship law on the part of the sales personnel. Also, it is pretty hard to verify citizenship without getting into same breach of privacy that the Arizona law (SB1070) fell into. Lastly, how are you as a merchant supposed to enforce such controls in an electronic transaction?
rubyrescue 14y ago
I think this is a new apple policy. I called 1-800-MY-APPLE from Argentina and mentioned that I might want to buy an iPad and have it shipped somewhere in the US (but that I happened to live down in BA). The guy said he couldn't sell it to me and that I should hang up and call back and not mention where I live. This happened last week.
- janus 14y ago
  Just buy it from the Apple store and their website and it should work ok
mullingitover 14y ago
This is a fine civil rights lawsuit in the making.
yashchandra 14y ago
If it is really to enforce export laws, why dont they check that at the airport when people are actually leaving the US ? This store should apologize and teach its employees to behave better.
- eigenvector 14y ago
  US CBP routinely inspects people leaving the USA by car (entering Canada). Many items that are unregulated in the US itself (e.g. firearms accessories) are illegal to export under ITAR.
  - rfrey 14y ago
    How do they do that? I've driven from the US to Canada dozens of times, and at every port I've been to the road goes directly past US customs up to Canadian customs. US customs has no opportunity to stop me coming into Canada, unless there are CBT officers in the Canadian customs booth?
    - detst 14y ago
      You may not interact with them usually but that doesn't mean they can't stop you. They do it before you pass them. I've had it happen in both the US and Canada.
      - dedward 14y ago
        Yes they can stop you - but to say it's routine sounds wrong - I will admit I haven't driven across the border in a long time, but when you head to the US, you don't normally deal with canadian border authorities, and vice-versa - you juts deal with the authorities of the country you are entering, not the one you are leaving.
- k-mcgrady 14y ago
  >> "why dont they check that at the airport when people are actually leaving the US ?" Do you really want TSA going through your luggage, carry on and checked, when you fly? That would add an incredible amount of time to check in.
jcromartie 14y ago
> "Discrimination. Racially profiled. He didn't have any business asking me what country I was from" Actually, if it would be illegal to sell the technology to an Iranian, and you're speaking the official language of Iran, then it would make a lot of sense for them to ask you if you're an Iranian citizen. Clearly the manager misunderstood and misapplied the policy, but this is not "racial profiling". It's linguistic profiling, and it's the only reasonable way to enforce the export law.
- MartinCron 14y ago
  the only reasonable way to enforce the export law That's sort of stretching the bounds of the word "reasonable" :) The law here seems to be over-broad. Retailers should be able to sell to anyone in their stores and not be held responsible for what someone may or may not do with it once it leaves their store. Alternatively, I guess they could do ID and background checks, handgun-shopping style.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - lutorm 14y ago
    What they do with it once it leaves is not the concern. The mere sale of export-controlled material to a foreign person is prohibited. It doesn't matter what they would do with it, because it's the transfer of technology to them that is prohibited. You should think of this law in the same way as the fact that you can't offer someone a job without verifying their legal work status. It's not "profiling", because it is your responsibility to ascertain that you are not breaking the law. You should positively verify this with everyone. The problem is that the law is being applied to completely mainstream consumer items, not ballistic missile technology or something.
    - JumpCrisscross 14y ago
      I can build a crude missile guidance system using PS3s. I'm not sure about iPads, but I'd wager one is looking at a similar situation. Still think this is ridiculous, however - a check of residency should have been between observing someone speaking Farsi and denying the sale.
pooriaazimi 14y ago
The U.S. holds complete embargoes against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria The exportation, reexportation, sale or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a U.S. person wherever located, of any Apple goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to any of these countries is strictly prohibited without prior authorization by the U.S. Government. This prohibition also applies to any Apple owned subsidiary or any subsidiary employee worldwide. So that's why they always completely ignore my bug reports :)
mikerice 14y ago
Why is this even bad? Current US - Iran relations are very bad, and are blowing up thanks to media. It's no surprise that this man doesn't want to risk losing his job.
josteink 14y ago
Sorry. Farsi is low class and only hipsters and rich people are allowed to buy iPads. Edit: Jesus christ the amount of Apple apologetics in this thread. I'm out of here.
jszielenski 14y ago
An airline denied me boarding a flight because I had a turban on.
- AsylumWarden 14y ago
  My wife and I were accosted and robbed at knife point in Italy because, as the mugger put it, we were American and deserved it. The cops thought it was funny. A friend of mine was arrested in Egypt back in 2009. He spent a year in prison simply because he was overheard casually mentioned to his associate that he was a Christian. I have a coworker who told me about how his laptop was confiscated on his way through the LAX airport because he used PGP encryption for his hard drive and was a foreign national working for an overseas UAV manufacturer. The list goes on and on.
  - jbm 14y ago
    Your friend was arrested for being a Christian in a country with a large Christian minority? Please elaborate.
    - AsylumWarden 14y ago
      I suspect that just because there is a minority present doesn't mean that it is always tolerated; especially if an American is involved overseas. I believe tolerance changes with the winds (or whims) of time as it were. My friend's conviction was down the lines of evangelizing and disturbing the peace. He was in Egypt for combination work and vacation and while preparing to leave was overheard commenting to someone he had meet on being a Christian and was reported to security. He got detained, questioned, beat up a little, and tossed in jail. He was later tried, found guilty and left in prison. The US government couldn't, or wouldn't, get him out. Sad story really.
EGreg 14y ago
What is the point of this? The person can just call back or send someone else to buy the phone. Or refuse to answer where they are from. If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport. If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it. That would be better than penalizing people for speaking a language. Especially since they can call back. I guess Apple is covering its ass, but the law sounds like it wouldn't be possible to perfectly enforce. Maybe it is just there to crack down on what would otherwise be Iranian citizens being won over by shiny goodness "evil" American corporations :) Apple products arrive in Iran. Iranians start using shiny iPhones and iPads. The app store has plenty of family friendly goodies. Before they know it, they are playing angry birds and they love american stuff. Then, someone releases a "how to build green energy" app in Iran. Iran develops green sources of energy and abandons nuclear energy program. Affirms nuclear non proliferation treaty. US rejoices. LOL
- epoxyhockey 14y ago
  If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport. If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it. Yes! It makes me wonder if the Apple store employee used to be an ignorant TSA worker.
- DrMfloss 14y ago
  they should just ask everyone are you going to take this to one of the restricted countries? Yes or NO THE END
  - beedogs 14y ago
    Or they could stop pretending an iPhone is some sort of weaponizable supercomputer.
  - excuse-me 14y ago
    Download a mouse driver from Dell and it asks you if you are going to use it to design weapons of mass destruction!
waterlesscloud 14y ago
News video here, including interviews with two of the people mentioned in the article. http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-customers-say-1460360.html http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-customer...
ctdonath 14y ago
Not long ago, the same store suffered a break-in attempt. Some guys in another state wanted bail money for their buddy, so they drove several hours to this store, waited 'til after hours, smashed a mall window, crawled in, and tried without luck to break into the Apple store. Turns out the stores, despite having lots of glass, are built like bank vaults.
- duiker101 14y ago
  ...and...how is this related to this story? Also it's something that you would expect from a store that has several thousands of dollars in it...
  - ctdonath 14y ago
    It's related for being the same store, which I care about because I visit it on a regular basis. Not often does one store make the news multiple times in a short period.
dsk2012 14y ago
I'm so happy that between us and them, stands a low-wage retail Apple employee.
kitsune_ 14y ago
So much for hiring "geniuses"...
- njloof 14y ago
  Not a lot of geniuses in Alpharetta, Georgia, it seems...
accountswu 14y ago
What should the people of Iranian origin do to make it easy for Apple Nazis? Put a star of David or a crescent on their clothes before they enter the store?
raffi 14y ago
As someone who just retained legal help in this area, export control is not as simple as many of you make it out to be. An export happens when material ends up in the hands of a foreign national, whether it's inside the border or not. Businesses have an obligation to "know their customer" and look out for "red flags". I'm not an expert in this area. It's just as I have had to delve into it, it's nowhere near trivial or as easy to deal with as you might think. Oh and the fines for being wrong (even if you self report) can be very very hefty.
- Quizzy 14y ago
  The "fines for being wrong" can also include lawsuits when you inappropriately reject a customer because what your salesperson thought was Farsi turns out to be some Indian dialect because he's simply bad at recognizing languages and was recently reprimanded for his failure to recognize Farsi, so now he's more likely to commit a false positive due to paranoia. Good luck with that lawsuit.
  - TwiztidK 14y ago
    In this case: Woman: (Speaks Farsi) Apple: Excuse me, but which language were you speaking? Woman: "Farsi, I'm from Iran." (Direct quote) Huh, it is pretty ambiguous where she is from.
    - marshray 14y ago
      Except for the fact that she is a US citizen.
DrMfloss 14y ago
What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by a spoken language. Iranian people are proud people just like Irish, Italians, and Cuban’s. I have many friends that were born in U.S but if you ask them what language you are speaking they will tell you “oh it’s Spanish, I am Cuban” because they are proud of their nationality. Same thing with the girl, the man asked what language she was speaking and she said Farsi (but most people do not know what language Farsi is) so she added I am from Iran. This girl could have even been born in the U.S. The Correct way to approach this would have ben to ask more questions. Like how long have you lived in the U.S.? are you Planning on going back anytime in the future? As a matter of fact they should ask everyone this question. Are they planning to Travel to any of the restricted countries in the near future? Because anyone can be shipping this highly sensitive material overseas to anyone of the restricted countries.
- scott_meade 14y ago
  "What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by a spoken language." That sure is how the article makes it seem. And that sure would be wrong of Apple. Yet the customer was planning to send the iPad to Iran and I wonder if that intention didn't some how come out in conversation such that the Apple employee knew of that intention? It would be interesting to have more details and it's difficult to tell when we have only the customer's recollection of events. It will be interesting to hear Apple's response.
joeblau 14y ago
Per Apples policy, it seems like all she has to do is get authorization from the U.S. Government.
- tshtf 14y ago
  Since when to U.S. citizens need a government authorization to buy a computer?
  - joeblau 14y ago
    I don't know, read the law that Apple is citing. Apparently, it has to do with relation to Iran, Cuba, and North Korea.
Splines 14y ago
Export laws seem like security theater - it doesn't actually help, and only catches honest people. If you're from a country that is embargoed, and you need computing power for some nefarious reason, I'm certain you'll find a way. Going to your local apple store dressed in your native clothing while speaking your native language isn't in your game plan.
lightyrs 14y ago
The real story here is the U.S. law — I'm a citizen and I must say, this is shameful. This read like a really bad Onion article.
- lightyrs 14y ago
  The idea that Iran is a real threat to the United States and its allies is an Oceania-esque farce. Our country is in an economic war with China, being fought via proxy economic and media battles with Iran and its allies. This law is disgraceful.
noonespecial 14y ago
What they should think about doing is refusing to sell to anyone from that wacky district in east Texas that's causing all of the patent troll messes. Now that would benefit the country more than some goofy ethnic profile rule.
- briandear 14y ago
  Except there's no law against selling to Texas. Your logic is flawed.
chawco 14y ago
> The iPad was to be a gift for her cousin who lives in Iran. I'm guessing they may have mentioned this fact, which would have made it illegal to sell to them due to the export ban.
aGoodperson 14y ago
Being denied a sale in a single store is nothing compared to how iranians would treat an american trying to live on thier soil. Have you seen the videos of thousands of iranians screeming in unison, stringing up fake american dummies, beating them with sticks, stoneing them, setting them on fire and burning the american flag in the streets? For the most part we live with you in peace over here,we wouldn't string you up or cut your head off with a knife or burn you alive but you are appaulled that someone doesn't trust you here?
- aGoodperson 14y ago
  If you don't like it here go home.
aGoodperson 14y ago
Being denied a sale in a single store is nothing compared to how iranians would treat an american trying to live on thier soil. Have you seen the videos of thousands of iranians screeming in unison, stringing up fake american dummies, beating them with sticks, stoneing them, setting them on fire and burning the american flag in the streets? For the most part we live with you in peace over here,we wouldn't string you up or cut your head off with a knife or burn you alive but you are appaulled that someone doesn't trust you here?
aGoodperson 14y ago
you could always go back and not have to worry about the apple store employees, because there are non back in iran.
aGoodperson 14y ago
Being denied a sale in a single store is nothing compared to how iranians would treat an american trying to live on thier soil. Have you seen the videos of thousands of iranians screeming in unison, stringing up fake american dummies, beating them with sticks, stoneing them, setting them on fire and burning the american flag in the streets? For the most part we live with you in peace over here,we wouldn't string you up or cut your head off with a knife or burn you alive but you are appaulled that someone doesn't trust you here?

131 points by ghurlman 14y ago

The only person in the wrong here is the customer service representative who's violating US sanctions against Iran by selling an iPad to an Iranian citizen. e: can't read, see below.

MartinCron 14y ago
Did you miss the "Sabet is a U.S. citizen" in the article?
- spwert 14y ago
  Whoops. Yes I did.
  - Ralith 14y ago
    However, it seems pretty clear that the Apple employee interpreted Sabet's words "I'm from Iran" as meaning "I am an Iranian citizen." This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation, and there's no indication that Sabet made any effort to communicate her citizenship.
- Turing_Machine 14y ago
  There's no mention of her telling the clerk that she was a U.S. citizen. She told him "I'm from Iran". What's he supposed to do in that case? Can't blame him for not taking the risk. That's a serious federal law (and it's not unheard of for the feds to run sting operations, when it comes down to that). The other guy was definitely trying to buy the device for an Iranian citizen.
  - Quizzy 14y ago
    The Federal Law says nothing about selling to a person who has no intention of bringing the item back to Iran, but simply has either a Farsi accent or was born in Iran. There was no mention of an Apple policy that requires its employees to ask "What is your citizenship?", but instead automatically assume nationality based on the comment "I'm from Iran." If the onus is on the consumer to clearly state his citizenship, then shouldn't there be a sign that lists the legal conditions of purchase? I am most bothered by the fact that the Apple rep recognized Farsi and inquired further. So is it pure coincidence that the Apple rep knows Farsi or is every Apple retailer trained to recognize Farsi? And even if the Apple rep recognizes Farsi and inquires further, what if the consumer lies and says "no, I'm speaking Hindi", then what? Polygraph test? Bring in an interpreter? Call security to escort them out? Apple is walking down a very slippery slope here.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

appleRecist 14y ago

this is complete example of racism.

sohn2 14y ago
Or maybe elitism.
- astrodust 14y ago
  Or "eltism" to follow that example.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
You created an account for this? And didn't even spell racist right? Wow.
jcromartie 14y ago
It's racist to jump to the conclusion that someone speaking the language of Iran might be Iranian? I'd say that's a reasonable (if incorrect) assumption to make.
- Ralith 14y ago
  It wasn't even incorrect: her own words were "I'm from Iran." It's obvious that the Apple employee made the perfectly reasonable interpretation that this described her citizenship.
  - chris_wot 14y ago
    What's untrue about that statement? She is from Iran! Now she is a U.S. citizen.
    - Ralith 14y ago
      Nothing is untrue about it. Obviously, there was a miscommunication, and the woman decided to go scream "Racism!" to the presses instead of clearing it up. Edit: Oh, I see, you thought I was asserting that she was of Iranian citizenship. I understood the parent of my original post to be referring to her being of Iranian race, because she appears to be trying to make it out as a race issue, when in truth it is a citizenship issue.

joelhaasnoot 14y ago

Who on earth decided that when a foreign citizen is on US soil, selling to them consitutes "exporting"? What if he's a refugee or has dual citizenships? To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general.

waterlesscloud 14y ago
It sounds like these situations are more complicated than that. http://distributioninsider.electronicproducts.com/articles/export-security.php http://distributioninsider.electronicproducts.com/articles/e... "Similarly, sharing documents containing technical data with non-U.S. persons, either overseas or in the states, without export authorization would be an ITAR violation. “There are very few people who understand that an illegal export can be as simple as discussing design and technical information over lunch, if the person you are dining with is a non-U.S. person,”
- mturmon 14y ago
  Note, however, that ITAR is not the same thing as EAR. They are two different laws pertaining to two different "export" situations (both with serious penalties for breaking).
  - excuse-me 14y ago
    In my experience the system is: Senior representatives from the european and US partnering aerospace companies sit in a big boardroom with their respective legal team and discuss what they can and cannot discuss. Actually they generally get no further than discussing if they can discuss what they can or can't discuss. Meanwhile the American and British engineers go for a quiet coffee on their own (preferably off site) and sort out any technical questions between them without anything being written down. The French engineers from the european company have to sit in the corner and sulk. German/Dutch engineers sit there looking extremely confused as to why all this is necessary.
pash 14y ago
> To me, this mostly sounds like Apple taking US laws too literal/general. Unfortunately not. The relevant definition of "export" is the one at Export Administration Regulations § 734.2(b)(2)(ii): (2) Export of technology or software. ...: (i) Any release of technology or software subject to the EAR in a foreign country; or (ii) Any release of technology or source code subject to the EAR to a foreign national. Such release is deemed to be an export to the home country or countries of the foreign national. This deemed export rule does not apply to persons lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States and does not apply to persons who are protected individuals under the Immigration and Naturalization Act (8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)). Note that the release of any item to any party with knowledge a violation is about to occur is prohibited by §736.2(b)(10) of the EAR. [0] Apple's interpretation is the one almost all export-control lawyers will give their clients and is the one the Bureau of Industry and Security will give you if you ask for clarification. EDIT: By the way, the reason Apple won't/can't sell iPads to foreigners in the US but can sell them the same product abroad likely comes down to paperwork. I am not Apple's lawyer, but I imagine Apple exports iPads under a provision of the export-control regulations that allows export of (a great many) controlled products without needing to obtain a license so long as the use of the regulatory licensing exception is properly noted on the export documentation. But Apple's retail stores presumably are not equipped to fill out and submit those documents, so they simply won't/can't sell to foreigners. 0. http://www.bis.doc.gov/policiesandregulations/ear/734.pdf http://www.bis.doc.gov/policiesandregulations/ear/734.pdf [PDF]

pdeuchler 14y ago

Just an idiot that's part of a large corporation wrongly trying to enforce a policy that doesn't apply (and is probably not his to enforce). It is clearly not Apple's true policy, as the woman in question was eventually able to purchase her iPad online. Regardless of the calculus behind the employee's decision, I can't help but wonder if this story would be on the frontpage if it was anyone but Apple.

kevinpet 14y ago
How does the policy not apply? Is Apple being irrational, or is Apple making their best effort to thread the needle between stupid laws?
- pdeuchler 14y ago
  Because the women were U.S. citizens, rendering any law about foreign exports (and consequently foreign nationals) moot
TwiztidK 14y ago
It's similar to how Apple takes most of the flack for human rights violations at Foxconn when many other companies (including Acer, Intel, HP, Dell, Sony, Toshiba, etc) have their products manufactured by Foxconn as well.

jevinskie 14y ago

These crypto export laws (while better than they were in the 90s) are silly given that crypto approved for top secret material (AES with large keys) is pervasively available on the internet.

tikhonj 14y ago
I think this isn't about exporting cryptographic software so much as about not trading with certain countries (e.g. Iran, Cuba or North Korea) at all.

eshvk 14y ago

I am confused: Is the act of selling something that has export controls to an alien national in American soil equivalent to an export?

eli 14y ago
No. The manager has grossly misunderstood corporate policy.
- kevinpet 14y ago
  Has Apple said this? Or are you just guessing?
  - eli 14y ago
    Most of the debate going on in comments here is about selling to a hypothetical Iranian visiting the US. But that's not what actually happened here -- the customer is a US citizen. I am pretty confident that it is Apple policy to sell equipment to US citizens in US stores regardless of their ancestry.
waterlesscloud 14y ago
Yes. It seems this falls under "deemed export" concept, where controlled technology is "deemed" to be exported just by a foreign national having contact with it. http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf http://www.ailf.org/lac/pa/lac_pa_071703.pdf "Once such information is released to a foreign national, it is deemed to have been exported to that person’s country of nationality. Under both the EAR and the ITAR, the deemed export rule applies to technology (and, in some cases, software) transfers to a foreign national, if the technology (or software) to which the foreign national is exposed relates to the development, production, disposal, or use of items controlled under either the EAR or the ITAR. " Now, whether this applies to ipads and iphones, I have no idea.
- eshvk 14y ago
  If that does apply to electronics like the iPad/iPhone, it is pretty retarded. It requires a significant degree of knowledge of citizenship law on the part of the sales personnel. Also, it is pretty hard to verify citizenship without getting into same breach of privacy that the Arizona law (SB1070) fell into. Lastly, how are you as a merchant supposed to enforce such controls in an electronic transaction?

rubyrescue 14y ago

I think this is a new apple policy. I called 1-800-MY-APPLE from Argentina and mentioned that I might want to buy an iPad and have it shipped somewhere in the US (but that I happened to live down in BA). The guy said he couldn't sell it to me and that I should hang up and call back and not mention where I live. This happened last week.

janus 14y ago
Just buy it from the Apple store and their website and it should work ok

mullingitover 14y ago

This is a fine civil rights lawsuit in the making.

yashchandra 14y ago

If it is really to enforce export laws, why dont they check that at the airport when people are actually leaving the US ? This store should apologize and teach its employees to behave better.

eigenvector 14y ago
US CBP routinely inspects people leaving the USA by car (entering Canada). Many items that are unregulated in the US itself (e.g. firearms accessories) are illegal to export under ITAR.
- rfrey 14y ago
  How do they do that? I've driven from the US to Canada dozens of times, and at every port I've been to the road goes directly past US customs up to Canadian customs. US customs has no opportunity to stop me coming into Canada, unless there are CBT officers in the Canadian customs booth?
  - detst 14y ago
    You may not interact with them usually but that doesn't mean they can't stop you. They do it before you pass them. I've had it happen in both the US and Canada.
    - dedward 14y ago
      Yes they can stop you - but to say it's routine sounds wrong - I will admit I haven't driven across the border in a long time, but when you head to the US, you don't normally deal with canadian border authorities, and vice-versa - you juts deal with the authorities of the country you are entering, not the one you are leaving.
k-mcgrady 14y ago
>> "why dont they check that at the airport when people are actually leaving the US ?" Do you really want TSA going through your luggage, carry on and checked, when you fly? That would add an incredible amount of time to check in.

jcromartie 14y ago

> "Discrimination. Racially profiled. He didn't have any business asking me what country I was from" Actually, if it would be illegal to sell the technology to an Iranian, and you're speaking the official language of Iran, then it would make a lot of sense for them to ask you if you're an Iranian citizen. Clearly the manager misunderstood and misapplied the policy, but this is not "racial profiling". It's linguistic profiling, and it's the only reasonable way to enforce the export law.

MartinCron 14y ago
the only reasonable way to enforce the export law That's sort of stretching the bounds of the word "reasonable" :) The law here seems to be over-broad. Retailers should be able to sell to anyone in their stores and not be held responsible for what someone may or may not do with it once it leaves their store. Alternatively, I guess they could do ID and background checks, handgun-shopping style.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- lutorm 14y ago
  What they do with it once it leaves is not the concern. The mere sale of export-controlled material to a foreign person is prohibited. It doesn't matter what they would do with it, because it's the transfer of technology to them that is prohibited. You should think of this law in the same way as the fact that you can't offer someone a job without verifying their legal work status. It's not "profiling", because it is your responsibility to ascertain that you are not breaking the law. You should positively verify this with everyone. The problem is that the law is being applied to completely mainstream consumer items, not ballistic missile technology or something.
  - JumpCrisscross 14y ago
    I can build a crude missile guidance system using PS3s. I'm not sure about iPads, but I'd wager one is looking at a similar situation. Still think this is ridiculous, however - a check of residency should have been between observing someone speaking Farsi and denying the sale.

pooriaazimi 14y ago

The U.S. holds complete embargoes against Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria The exportation, reexportation, sale or supply, directly or indirectly, from the United States, or by a U.S. person wherever located, of any Apple goods, software, technology (including technical data), or services to any of these countries is strictly prohibited without prior authorization by the U.S. Government. This prohibition also applies to any Apple owned subsidiary or any subsidiary employee worldwide. So that's why they always completely ignore my bug reports :)

mikerice 14y ago

Why is this even bad? Current US - Iran relations are very bad, and are blowing up thanks to media. It's no surprise that this man doesn't want to risk losing his job.

josteink 14y ago

Sorry. Farsi is low class and only hipsters and rich people are allowed to buy iPads. Edit: Jesus christ the amount of Apple apologetics in this thread. I'm out of here.

jszielenski 14y ago

An airline denied me boarding a flight because I had a turban on.

AsylumWarden 14y ago
My wife and I were accosted and robbed at knife point in Italy because, as the mugger put it, we were American and deserved it. The cops thought it was funny. A friend of mine was arrested in Egypt back in 2009. He spent a year in prison simply because he was overheard casually mentioned to his associate that he was a Christian. I have a coworker who told me about how his laptop was confiscated on his way through the LAX airport because he used PGP encryption for his hard drive and was a foreign national working for an overseas UAV manufacturer. The list goes on and on.
- jbm 14y ago
  Your friend was arrested for being a Christian in a country with a large Christian minority? Please elaborate.
  - AsylumWarden 14y ago
    I suspect that just because there is a minority present doesn't mean that it is always tolerated; especially if an American is involved overseas. I believe tolerance changes with the winds (or whims) of time as it were. My friend's conviction was down the lines of evangelizing and disturbing the peace. He was in Egypt for combination work and vacation and while preparing to leave was overheard commenting to someone he had meet on being a Christian and was reported to security. He got detained, questioned, beat up a little, and tossed in jail. He was later tried, found guilty and left in prison. The US government couldn't, or wouldn't, get him out. Sad story really.

EGreg 14y ago

What is the point of this? The person can just call back or send someone else to buy the phone. Or refuse to answer where they are from. If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport. If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it. That would be better than penalizing people for speaking a language. Especially since they can call back. I guess Apple is covering its ass, but the law sounds like it wouldn't be possible to perfectly enforce. Maybe it is just there to crack down on what would otherwise be Iranian citizens being won over by shiny goodness "evil" American corporations :) Apple products arrive in Iran. Iranians start using shiny iPhones and iPads. The app store has plenty of family friendly goodies. Before they know it, they are playing angry birds and they love american stuff. Then, someone releases a "how to build green energy" app in Iran. Iran develops green sources of energy and abandons nuclear energy program. Affirms nuclear non proliferation treaty. US rejoices. LOL

epoxyhockey 14y ago
If you really want to enforce something like this, REQUIRE a valid passport. If they produce an Iranian one, then don't sell it. Yes! It makes me wonder if the Apple store employee used to be an ignorant TSA worker.
DrMfloss 14y ago
they should just ask everyone are you going to take this to one of the restricted countries? Yes or NO THE END
- beedogs 14y ago
  Or they could stop pretending an iPhone is some sort of weaponizable supercomputer.
- excuse-me 14y ago
  Download a mouse driver from Dell and it asks you if you are going to use it to design weapons of mass destruction!

waterlesscloud 14y ago

News video here, including interviews with two of the people mentioned in the article. http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-customers-say-1460360.html http://www.ajc.com/news/north-fulton/farsi-speaking-customer...

ctdonath 14y ago

Not long ago, the same store suffered a break-in attempt. Some guys in another state wanted bail money for their buddy, so they drove several hours to this store, waited 'til after hours, smashed a mall window, crawled in, and tried without luck to break into the Apple store. Turns out the stores, despite having lots of glass, are built like bank vaults.

duiker101 14y ago
...and...how is this related to this story? Also it's something that you would expect from a store that has several thousands of dollars in it...
- ctdonath 14y ago
  It's related for being the same store, which I care about because I visit it on a regular basis. Not often does one store make the news multiple times in a short period.

dsk2012 14y ago

I'm so happy that between us and them, stands a low-wage retail Apple employee.

kitsune_ 14y ago

So much for hiring "geniuses"...

njloof 14y ago
Not a lot of geniuses in Alpharetta, Georgia, it seems...

accountswu 14y ago

What should the people of Iranian origin do to make it easy for Apple Nazis? Put a star of David or a crescent on their clothes before they enter the store?

raffi 14y ago

As someone who just retained legal help in this area, export control is not as simple as many of you make it out to be. An export happens when material ends up in the hands of a foreign national, whether it's inside the border or not. Businesses have an obligation to "know their customer" and look out for "red flags". I'm not an expert in this area. It's just as I have had to delve into it, it's nowhere near trivial or as easy to deal with as you might think. Oh and the fines for being wrong (even if you self report) can be very very hefty.

Quizzy 14y ago
The "fines for being wrong" can also include lawsuits when you inappropriately reject a customer because what your salesperson thought was Farsi turns out to be some Indian dialect because he's simply bad at recognizing languages and was recently reprimanded for his failure to recognize Farsi, so now he's more likely to commit a false positive due to paranoia. Good luck with that lawsuit.
- TwiztidK 14y ago
  In this case: Woman: (Speaks Farsi) Apple: Excuse me, but which language were you speaking? Woman: "Farsi, I'm from Iran." (Direct quote) Huh, it is pretty ambiguous where she is from.
  - marshray 14y ago
    Except for the fact that she is a US citizen.

DrMfloss 14y ago

What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by a spoken language. Iranian people are proud people just like Irish, Italians, and Cuban’s. I have many friends that were born in U.S but if you ask them what language you are speaking they will tell you “oh it’s Spanish, I am Cuban” because they are proud of their nationality. Same thing with the girl, the man asked what language she was speaking and she said Farsi (but most people do not know what language Farsi is) so she added I am from Iran. This girl could have even been born in the U.S. The Correct way to approach this would have ben to ask more questions. Like how long have you lived in the U.S.? are you Planning on going back anytime in the future? As a matter of fact they should ask everyone this question. Are they planning to Travel to any of the restricted countries in the near future? Because anyone can be shipping this highly sensitive material overseas to anyone of the restricted countries.

scott_meade 14y ago
"What apple did wrong is that thy judged a person’s Intentions and residency by a spoken language." That sure is how the article makes it seem. And that sure would be wrong of Apple. Yet the customer was planning to send the iPad to Iran and I wonder if that intention didn't some how come out in conversation such that the Apple employee knew of that intention? It would be interesting to have more details and it's difficult to tell when we have only the customer's recollection of events. It will be interesting to hear Apple's response.

joeblau 14y ago

Per Apples policy, it seems like all she has to do is get authorization from the U.S. Government.

tshtf 14y ago
Since when to U.S. citizens need a government authorization to buy a computer?
- joeblau 14y ago
  I don't know, read the law that Apple is citing. Apparently, it has to do with relation to Iran, Cuba, and North Korea.

Splines 14y ago

Export laws seem like security theater - it doesn't actually help, and only catches honest people. If you're from a country that is embargoed, and you need computing power for some nefarious reason, I'm certain you'll find a way. Going to your local apple store dressed in your native clothing while speaking your native language isn't in your game plan.

lightyrs 14y ago

The real story here is the U.S. law — I'm a citizen and I must say, this is shameful. This read like a really bad Onion article.

lightyrs 14y ago
The idea that Iran is a real threat to the United States and its allies is an Oceania-esque farce. Our country is in an economic war with China, being fought via proxy economic and media battles with Iran and its allies. This law is disgraceful.

noonespecial 14y ago

What they should think about doing is refusing to sell to anyone from that wacky district in east Texas that's causing all of the patent troll messes. Now that would benefit the country more than some goofy ethnic profile rule.

briandear 14y ago
Except there's no law against selling to Texas. Your logic is flawed.

chawco 14y ago

> The iPad was to be a gift for her cousin who lives in Iran. I'm guessing they may have mentioned this fact, which would have made it illegal to sell to them due to the export ban.

aGoodperson 14y ago

Being denied a sale in a single store is nothing compared to how iranians would treat an american trying to live on thier soil. Have you seen the videos of thousands of iranians screeming in unison, stringing up fake american dummies, beating them with sticks, stoneing them, setting them on fire and burning the american flag in the streets? For the most part we live with you in peace over here,we wouldn't string you up or cut your head off with a knife or burn you alive but you are appaulled that someone doesn't trust you here?

aGoodperson 14y ago
If you don't like it here go home.

aGoodperson 14y ago

you could always go back and not have to worry about the apple store employees, because there are non back in iran.

aGoodperson 14y ago