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> That's trusting a third party. It's not, Phoenix is a non-custodial wallet. They provide one shortly-custodial service to on-board on the Lightning Network (

> That's trusting a third party. It's not, Phoenix is a non-custodial wallet. They provide one shortly-custodial service to on-board on the Lightning Network (to provide a seamless experience, but you can do the process manually with your own node if you prefer). Once the channel on LN is open, it is non-custodial and trustless. For Hardware Wallets, plenty of other providers exist, exempt of data breaches and dodgy services unlike Ledger. For Bitcoin Coldcard comes to mind. For the risk of physically losing your keys, seems like a less random, more in your control, risk than trusting Chase Bank, see OP. > trusting a crypto custodian If that's your choice, at least you have the option to avoid this with crypto... that's one thing I will never get with people who systematically bash Bitcoin, nobody forces you to use it, it provides you optionality and full control of your assets, something traditional bank and fiat do not offer at all, you are forced by the state to pay your taxes with the currency they tell you, you are practically forced to use banking as a cash only life is pretty complicated these days... so why hate on a new option.

lisper 2y ago
> It's not, Phoenix is a non-custodial wallet. What difference does that make? You're still trusting them not to have put in a backdoor, and to have sufficient security in their development process that an attacker cannot insert a backdoor. Also, what happens to your keys if your smartphone fails? Is there a backup? Is that self-hosted too? Is it adequately encrypted? Unless you do everything yourself (which ultimately means running your own foundry) you cannot escape having to trust someone. It might as well be your banker. > full control of your assets Until your keys are lost or compromised. Then you are irredeemably screwed.
- throw101010 2y ago
  At which point does this no true Scotsman stops? Controlling your keys (yes this implies a backup, all wallets guide/help you to do it these days), having access to the source code of your wallet, and being able to verify the data of Bitcoin's public and open blockchain is obviously much better than blindly trusting your bank and getting cut off from your assets at any point through NO fault of your own. > Until your keys are lost or compromised. Then you are irredeemably screwed. Yes, you have discovered the big secret everyone in crypto is "hiding"... when they say self-custody they very sneakily imply you, yourself, have custody and responsibility of your assets. If this NEW digital option is not for you, don't use it, go trust custodians. Before Bitcoin you had no such choice. In the case of banks you are also pretty screwed... just slightly less iredeemably in some cases... in the worste cases you might need to find a lawyer willing to help you, depending the amount it might just not be worth your time or the time of lawyers/judge. Unless the bank decides to hear reason magically or gets tired of your nagging like in OP's case... seem like a lot of trust and no control at all, at any point.
  - lisper 2y ago
    > having access to the source code of your wallet, and being able to verify the data of Bitcoin's public and open blockchain is obviously much better than blindly trusting your bank and getting cut off from your assets at any point through NO fault of your own. Maybe for you. Not for everyone. The vast majority of people don't have the technical chops to audit a code base. They have to trust someone else to do it for them. > slightly less iredeemably in some cases But that's significant. And if you learn how to work the human system, you can improve your odds much more than "slightly". That's a skill that many people have a much easier time picking up than coding or public-key crypto.
    - throw101010 2y ago
      > Maybe for you. Not for everyone. Hence why everything tends to be public and open source for Bitcoin, so anyone who is conscientious and capable *can* do this. Trustlessness is a scale, not a binary. It just so happens that in traditional banking you start at the very bottom of the scale and you pretty much stay there. With Bitcoin you get about as high as you can get on this scale for a form of money. > That's a skill that many people have a much easier time picking up than coding or public-key crypto. As much as they learn about the meanders of the traditional banking system, it still won't make them more in control of their assets, the more custodians and regulators you add between you and your assets, the less in control you are of them. And we aren't even talking about another form of control you lack with fiat currencies, their almost constant expanding supply.
      - lisper 2y ago
        > anyone who is conscientious and capable can do this Anyone who is conscientious and capable can navigate the traditional banking system too. In fact, that's pretty much what "capable" means. > in traditional banking you start at the very bottom of the scale and you pretty much stay there You don't have to any more than you have to with bitcoin. You can even start your own bank, and then you can keep your deposits there and you will have a 100% guarantee that your bank will not screw you. It's not easy, but neither is writing your own bitcoin client from scratch. A very plausible route to that kind of security is joining the board of a credit union. > As much as they learn about the meanders of the traditional banking system, it still won't make them more in control of their assets That's not true. The more you learn about how the system works the more in control you can become. It is exactly the same in both cases. The only real difference is: > almost constant expanding supply That is a real difference between fiat and bitcoin (though not crypto in general). But that has nothing to do with control, and it has nothing to do with crypto, it has to do with policy. It's easy to make an inflating crypto currency. You could even fork an inflating bitcoin. You could likewise make a non-inflating fiat currency, e.g. the U.S. dollar during the Great Depression. But there is a reason this isn't done very much -- it's because a return to the Great Depression is not generally considered something to aspire to.

lisper 2y ago

> It's not, Phoenix is a non-custodial wallet. What difference does that make? You're still trusting them not to have put in a backdoor, and to have sufficient security in their development process that an attacker cannot insert a backdoor. Also, what happens to your keys if your smartphone fails? Is there a backup? Is that self-hosted too? Is it adequately encrypted? Unless you do everything yourself (which ultimately means running your own foundry) you cannot escape having to trust someone. It might as well be your banker. > full control of your assets Until your keys are lost or compromised. Then you are irredeemably screwed.

throw101010 2y ago
At which point does this no true Scotsman stops? Controlling your keys (yes this implies a backup, all wallets guide/help you to do it these days), having access to the source code of your wallet, and being able to verify the data of Bitcoin's public and open blockchain is obviously much better than blindly trusting your bank and getting cut off from your assets at any point through NO fault of your own. > Until your keys are lost or compromised. Then you are irredeemably screwed. Yes, you have discovered the big secret everyone in crypto is "hiding"... when they say self-custody they very sneakily imply you, yourself, have custody and responsibility of your assets. If this NEW digital option is not for you, don't use it, go trust custodians. Before Bitcoin you had no such choice. In the case of banks you are also pretty screwed... just slightly less iredeemably in some cases... in the worste cases you might need to find a lawyer willing to help you, depending the amount it might just not be worth your time or the time of lawyers/judge. Unless the bank decides to hear reason magically or gets tired of your nagging like in OP's case... seem like a lot of trust and no control at all, at any point.
- lisper 2y ago
  > having access to the source code of your wallet, and being able to verify the data of Bitcoin's public and open blockchain is obviously much better than blindly trusting your bank and getting cut off from your assets at any point through NO fault of your own. Maybe for you. Not for everyone. The vast majority of people don't have the technical chops to audit a code base. They have to trust someone else to do it for them. > slightly less iredeemably in some cases But that's significant. And if you learn how to work the human system, you can improve your odds much more than "slightly". That's a skill that many people have a much easier time picking up than coding or public-key crypto.
  - throw101010 2y ago
    > Maybe for you. Not for everyone. Hence why everything tends to be public and open source for Bitcoin, so anyone who is conscientious and capable *can* do this. Trustlessness is a scale, not a binary. It just so happens that in traditional banking you start at the very bottom of the scale and you pretty much stay there. With Bitcoin you get about as high as you can get on this scale for a form of money. > That's a skill that many people have a much easier time picking up than coding or public-key crypto. As much as they learn about the meanders of the traditional banking system, it still won't make them more in control of their assets, the more custodians and regulators you add between you and your assets, the less in control you are of them. And we aren't even talking about another form of control you lack with fiat currencies, their almost constant expanding supply.
    - lisper 2y ago
      > anyone who is conscientious and capable can do this Anyone who is conscientious and capable can navigate the traditional banking system too. In fact, that's pretty much what "capable" means. > in traditional banking you start at the very bottom of the scale and you pretty much stay there You don't have to any more than you have to with bitcoin. You can even start your own bank, and then you can keep your deposits there and you will have a 100% guarantee that your bank will not screw you. It's not easy, but neither is writing your own bitcoin client from scratch. A very plausible route to that kind of security is joining the board of a credit union. > As much as they learn about the meanders of the traditional banking system, it still won't make them more in control of their assets That's not true. The more you learn about how the system works the more in control you can become. It is exactly the same in both cases. The only real difference is: > almost constant expanding supply That is a real difference between fiat and bitcoin (though not crypto in general). But that has nothing to do with control, and it has nothing to do with crypto, it has to do with policy. It's easy to make an inflating crypto currency. You could even fork an inflating bitcoin. You could likewise make a non-inflating fiat currency, e.g. the U.S. dollar during the Great Depression. But there is a reason this isn't done very much -- it's because a return to the Great Depression is not generally considered something to aspire to.