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This is such a common occurrence these days with tech platforms. I had a similar situation with PayPal when I opened a business account for the first time. Minu

This is such a common occurrence these days with tech platforms. I had a similar situation with PayPal when I opened a business account for the first time. Minutes after opening the account I was perma-banned and I was told there was no appeal. Of course, there’s always a way of appealing if you can speak to someone with the authority to fix things (as I was able to in my situation). Unfortunately companies seem to be getting worse and worse at allowing you to speak to sufficiently empowered people to solve problems. I hope the HN effect helps you out here and someone at Google decides to swoop in and rescue you. If you live in America and you can’t otherwise resolve this, I’ve heard that filing a small claims lawsuit is an excellent method of last resort to get big tech to respond to you.

PaulHoule 2y ago
My wife forgot her PayPal password and got kicked out after a few failed attempts. To restore her account she had to send a fax. Consequence? She hasn’t bought anything off eBay for 15 years which is eBay’s loss not hers. It might take a few decades but sooner or later these platforms will bleed away all their customers.
- nkrisc 2y ago
  As long as customer acquisition outpaces customers lost to Kafka-esque nonsense, they’ll be fine on that front. Future customers are born every day.
- mattigames 2y ago
  Send them a fax with a QR code of an URL that points to the letter they requested (e.g. on Google docs), two can play those games.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    Well... then they don't bother scanning the QR code and might re-request that you send a fax. They'd probably ignore it altogether and you're just out the money/time for the postage with nothing to show. They are able to get away with making it maximally difficult for you to work with them because playing these games is their business.
- ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
  eBay moved away from PayPal many years ago.
  - minkles 2y ago
    Depends where you are. It is still heavily integrated in some countries.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    Doesn't mean customers will come back. (To be fair I will buy something for her if she really wants it. Myself, I went from buying about 40 things a year on eBay to buying about 4 a year more because my interests changed than because I had a problem with eBay)
    - Iulioh 2y ago
      Is not like ebay is a seller or something like Amazon, i find this discourse a little....meh? I don't understand to what you are directing your anger
minkles 2y ago
Yeah. It's not just that as well. Last week I was out for a walk with some friends and one of them left her android phone somewhere. She does everything on her phone. Unfortunately she found out she can't log into her google account without an SMS and she can't move her number to another SIM because the account details and MFA are also on the lost phone. Various attempts to contact Google have resulted in being redirected to the community for help and that's it. Her whole digital life shelved. Now I know this is partially end user incompetence but both platforms sold her the MFA option without a backup leaving her in the mire. Having been burned with my gmail account being hosed a number of years ago I keep everything separated, portable and backed up offline these days as well.
- petee 2y ago
  While too late to help your friend, this is part of the reason I decided to pay for Google One -- I want to be a customer who can reach a human, and have some recourse. I also use multiple yubikeys -- worth double checking time to time as my longtime key in my wallet died while I was out of town (lasted 8 yrs tho)
  - minkles 2y ago
    Google One is not great. Had some trouble with that for a client a while back too. I use two yubikeys (one on me, one at home) as well for anything I can't avoid like AWS so good solution.
- RockRobotRock 2y ago
  Google Fi?
  - minkles 2y ago
    No Lebara Mobile.
    - CoastalCoder 2y ago
      Is her name Barbara LeBarara [0]? (Sorry for the joke, it's been a long day.) [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZYkBf0dbs5I&si=VANdm3i1204htDJ4 https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZYkBf0dbs5I&si=VANdm3i1204htDJ4
BobAliceInATree 2y ago
These large companies have to deal with large amounts of spam, scammers, and regulations. If you come close to resembling or running afoul of any them, It’s just easier to ban you rather than spend the time and money to see if you’re legit. Until there’s legislation prohibiting this, it’s just going to continue and the broad brushes will likely broaden.
- rixthefox 2y ago
  > It’s just easier to ban you rather than spend the time and money to see if you’re legit. It’s even easier to just not release anything officially on the Play Store and go 100% into sideloading apps. Cut Google right out of the equation.
- tdeck 2y ago
  The thing is, there are obvious flaws in the review process that let a ton of spam and scammers through. It's not as if there's some high bar that keeps the bad stuff out but also some good stuff. It feels more like a sparse minefield that lets 80% of the crap through and occasionally hits something, and sometimes what it hits is bad.
Alupis 2y ago
> I had a similar situation with PayPal when I opened a business account for the first time. Minutes after opening the account I was perma-banned and I was told there was no appeal. So... what did you do that got you banned? I know it's popular to hate on PayPal, but they're not in the business of banning people, they're in the business of facilitating payments. Banning people for literally no reason doesn't serve that cause. Almost every time, when you pull on threads from this sort of story, it unravels into high-risk accounts receiving unusual payments from unusual places all within a limited timeframe where PayPal (or any payments processor for the matter) doesn't have time to evaluate your legitimacy. Your story might be the one out of a thousand that was on the wrong end of a rouge bot or something, but I have serious doubts. PayPal processes billions of dollars of payments annually. They don't do that by banning everyone for no reason. Did you use a VPN to deceive them on your location? Did you try to open a business account in the US despite being a UK citizen? Something you did tripped their system into believing you are/were not legitimate, and it's likely you would have also been banned from other similar-tier payment processors, such as CyberSource, Authorize.net, etc.
- theragra 2y ago
  You are a bit naive. I opened account for my mum, and I've seen how when I want to send or receive (legitimate and small) payments for her PayPal just says "cannot proceed with action" or something like this. It is better if you submit your passport and other data, but still far from painless. Their automatic systems flag transaction and then you are stuck, sometimes for ages. If you use browsers that prevent tracking or VPNs (legitimate and needed in many cases), then it is even worse. It takes half a year for the new account to become more trusted and be less flagged. Internet is full of stories how PayPal blocks people and they can't find why or appeal.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    You are talking about something entirely different than myself or the OP. OP, and this discussion is about PayPal the credit card processor (their main business), not PayPal the p2p payments things a la Venmo. For p2p payments, you do need to verify the account, otherwise it will be locked. They go out of their way to tell you this, so if you refuse to do so, do not be surprised when your account is limited or locked. > It takes half a year for the new account to become more trusted and be less flagged. This is entirely made up. Simply verify you account. They offer several ways. They have to verify who they are allowing to receive/send money for very obvious reasons. Fun fact, people love Venmo and hate PayPal - yet few realize they're actually the same company.
naet 2y ago
Filing a lawsuit would be an excellent method of making 100% sure a company will never ever do business with you ever again in any shape or form. Right now this person needs to get lucky and find a real human to speak with to possibly reverse the automated decision. That possibility would be completely erased by taking any kind of legal action.
- noodlesUK 2y ago
  Funnily enough this is actually an effective way of doing things with Meta. See: https://www.engadget.com/how-small-claims-court-became-metas-customer-service-hotline-160224479.html https://www.engadget.com/how-small-claims-court-became-metas...

PaulHoule 2y ago

My wife forgot her PayPal password and got kicked out after a few failed attempts. To restore her account she had to send a fax. Consequence? She hasn’t bought anything off eBay for 15 years which is eBay’s loss not hers. It might take a few decades but sooner or later these platforms will bleed away all their customers.

nkrisc 2y ago
As long as customer acquisition outpaces customers lost to Kafka-esque nonsense, they’ll be fine on that front. Future customers are born every day.
mattigames 2y ago
Send them a fax with a QR code of an URL that points to the letter they requested (e.g. on Google docs), two can play those games.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  Well... then they don't bother scanning the QR code and might re-request that you send a fax. They'd probably ignore it altogether and you're just out the money/time for the postage with nothing to show. They are able to get away with making it maximally difficult for you to work with them because playing these games is their business.
ThePowerOfFuet 2y ago
eBay moved away from PayPal many years ago.
- minkles 2y ago
  Depends where you are. It is still heavily integrated in some countries.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  Doesn't mean customers will come back. (To be fair I will buy something for her if she really wants it. Myself, I went from buying about 40 things a year on eBay to buying about 4 a year more because my interests changed than because I had a problem with eBay)
  - Iulioh 2y ago
    Is not like ebay is a seller or something like Amazon, i find this discourse a little....meh? I don't understand to what you are directing your anger

minkles 2y ago

Yeah. It's not just that as well. Last week I was out for a walk with some friends and one of them left her android phone somewhere. She does everything on her phone. Unfortunately she found out she can't log into her google account without an SMS and she can't move her number to another SIM because the account details and MFA are also on the lost phone. Various attempts to contact Google have resulted in being redirected to the community for help and that's it. Her whole digital life shelved. Now I know this is partially end user incompetence but both platforms sold her the MFA option without a backup leaving her in the mire. Having been burned with my gmail account being hosed a number of years ago I keep everything separated, portable and backed up offline these days as well.

petee 2y ago
While too late to help your friend, this is part of the reason I decided to pay for Google One -- I want to be a customer who can reach a human, and have some recourse. I also use multiple yubikeys -- worth double checking time to time as my longtime key in my wallet died while I was out of town (lasted 8 yrs tho)
- minkles 2y ago
  Google One is not great. Had some trouble with that for a client a while back too. I use two yubikeys (one on me, one at home) as well for anything I can't avoid like AWS so good solution.
RockRobotRock 2y ago
Google Fi?
- minkles 2y ago
  No Lebara Mobile.
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    Is her name Barbara LeBarara [0]? (Sorry for the joke, it's been a long day.) [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZYkBf0dbs5I&si=VANdm3i1204htDJ4 https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZYkBf0dbs5I&si=VANdm3i1204htDJ4

BobAliceInATree 2y ago

These large companies have to deal with large amounts of spam, scammers, and regulations. If you come close to resembling or running afoul of any them, It’s just easier to ban you rather than spend the time and money to see if you’re legit. Until there’s legislation prohibiting this, it’s just going to continue and the broad brushes will likely broaden.

rixthefox 2y ago
> It’s just easier to ban you rather than spend the time and money to see if you’re legit. It’s even easier to just not release anything officially on the Play Store and go 100% into sideloading apps. Cut Google right out of the equation.
tdeck 2y ago
The thing is, there are obvious flaws in the review process that let a ton of spam and scammers through. It's not as if there's some high bar that keeps the bad stuff out but also some good stuff. It feels more like a sparse minefield that lets 80% of the crap through and occasionally hits something, and sometimes what it hits is bad.

Alupis 2y ago

> I had a similar situation with PayPal when I opened a business account for the first time. Minutes after opening the account I was perma-banned and I was told there was no appeal. So... what did you do that got you banned? I know it's popular to hate on PayPal, but they're not in the business of banning people, they're in the business of facilitating payments. Banning people for literally no reason doesn't serve that cause. Almost every time, when you pull on threads from this sort of story, it unravels into high-risk accounts receiving unusual payments from unusual places all within a limited timeframe where PayPal (or any payments processor for the matter) doesn't have time to evaluate your legitimacy. Your story might be the one out of a thousand that was on the wrong end of a rouge bot or something, but I have serious doubts. PayPal processes billions of dollars of payments annually. They don't do that by banning everyone for no reason. Did you use a VPN to deceive them on your location? Did you try to open a business account in the US despite being a UK citizen? Something you did tripped their system into believing you are/were not legitimate, and it's likely you would have also been banned from other similar-tier payment processors, such as CyberSource, Authorize.net, etc.

theragra 2y ago
You are a bit naive. I opened account for my mum, and I've seen how when I want to send or receive (legitimate and small) payments for her PayPal just says "cannot proceed with action" or something like this. It is better if you submit your passport and other data, but still far from painless. Their automatic systems flag transaction and then you are stuck, sometimes for ages. If you use browsers that prevent tracking or VPNs (legitimate and needed in many cases), then it is even worse. It takes half a year for the new account to become more trusted and be less flagged. Internet is full of stories how PayPal blocks people and they can't find why or appeal.
- Alupis 2y ago
  You are talking about something entirely different than myself or the OP. OP, and this discussion is about PayPal the credit card processor (their main business), not PayPal the p2p payments things a la Venmo. For p2p payments, you do need to verify the account, otherwise it will be locked. They go out of their way to tell you this, so if you refuse to do so, do not be surprised when your account is limited or locked. > It takes half a year for the new account to become more trusted and be less flagged. This is entirely made up. Simply verify you account. They offer several ways. They have to verify who they are allowing to receive/send money for very obvious reasons. Fun fact, people love Venmo and hate PayPal - yet few realize they're actually the same company.

naet 2y ago

Filing a lawsuit would be an excellent method of making 100% sure a company will never ever do business with you ever again in any shape or form. Right now this person needs to get lucky and find a real human to speak with to possibly reverse the automated decision. That possibility would be completely erased by taking any kind of legal action.

noodlesUK 2y ago
Funnily enough this is actually an effective way of doing things with Meta. See: https://www.engadget.com/how-small-claims-court-became-metas-customer-service-hotline-160224479.html https://www.engadget.com/how-small-claims-court-became-metas...