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> The new settings stuff is materially worse than the old stuff. This depends on who your audience is, and I'm shocked by this community not seeing it. The ne

> The new settings stuff is materially worse than the old stuff. This depends on who your audience is, and I'm shocked by this community not seeing it. The new settings are far more intuitive for non-experience users who are more comfortable with an iPad than a traditional computer. That's where the market is. The enthusiast demographic who actually understands what the settings mean and how the machine works is minuscule.

timeon 2y ago
Yeah macOS settings also suffered changes made for iPad users.
- stuartd 2y ago
  I’ve been a Mac user for more than 20 years and I may be in a minority of one, but I prefer the new settings. When I use my old Mac with the old settings I find myself thinking “so which image do I need to click to do what I want?” but in the new settings I can find what I need from the text labels.
  - themadturk 2y ago
    I was a Mac user for about six years, went back to Windows through necessity, and returned to Mac four years ago. I don't hate the new Mac System Settings, but for me it's not as intuitive as the old version. Nor is the iPhone/iPad settings app easy to navigate. I don't completely understand the reasoning for the order or grouping of things. Then I realize I have no control over it, shrug my shoulders, and get on with finding and using the options I want.
- 2snakes 2y ago
  New M5 may have a touch screen.
practicemaths 2y ago
I'm not sure I follow. I understand your point from a purely aesthetic standpoint. However the second that a commonly needed setting is required you're going a layer "deeper" (it's not because before it was at the first level) and that aesthetic is broken. I doubt the iPad first crowd is going to really intuit that.
tempest_ 2y ago
I would wager that most users find the settings using the search bar in whatever OS they are in. Android and the like will just link you directly to the settings and most peoples computer now a days is a phone, not a laptop.
mulmen 2y ago
> The new settings are far more intuitive for non-experience users who are more comfortable with an iPad than a traditional computer. Right but the iPad UX is also terrible. All I can really do is remove and recreate. There’s no way to actually fix anything. This isn’t necessary. Advanced options could be exposed in iOS too. It’s just bad design everywhere.
wvenable 2y ago
I use the old control panel but one should concede that it's really quite esoteric and the new control panel is comparatively more straight forward. I'm also amazed at software developers complaining about Microsoft's development process for the Settings app. They've been incrementally developing it for years -- which is a good thing -- and yet there so many complaints here that it didn't materialize fully formed on day one. It's like when talking about Microsoft everyone forgets how software development is actually done.
- mulmen 2y ago
  The Windows Control Panel was first released in 1985. That’s 39 years ago. That’s longer than the time between the Wright Brothers’ first flight and the first jet aircraft. How is Microsoft still doing fundamental rewrites of core features?
  - wvenable 2y ago
    I don't understand your point. What are you trying to say?
    - mulmen 2y ago
      I’m saying if Microsoft hasn’t figured it out by now they never will.
      - wvenable 2y ago
        I still don't get what you mean. Clearly Windows isn't the same as it was 39 years ago and if it didn't change in all that time we wouldn't still be using it. Every operating system rewrites fundamental core features all the time.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - Terr_ 2y ago
throwawayk7h 2y ago
catering to developers is important in a completely different way than catering to typical users. I have one stomach for dinner and another for desert.
sideshowb 2y ago
And yet, back in the 90s most of the non-experienced users learned to use their computer nonetheless, in some cases gaining deeper understanding through the process of navigating the logically structured interface. Maybe it's more profitable to keep your users inexperienced. Easier to sell them cruft that way.
- mystified5016 2y ago
  Right? Most of us who were children at the time learned how to use 95/98 by ourselves. The vast majority of people had to learn how to use 95/98, and most had never touched a computer before. I don't think this demographic of tablet users who can't ever possibly accept another UI style actually exists. Poking at an unknown object to figure out how it works is not some ancient lost art. It's one of the most basic things that all humans do. We do this as infants. Gods, imagine how frightened and confused DOS users were by Windows.
  - mamcx 2y ago
    Totally. I was there, porting a FoxPro DOS app to Visual FoxPro and one of the biggest fights with the boss was about why I was adding multiple windows in the app. And I remember that the mouse was something that confused users. And the joke about using the CD drawer to put the coffee there? I see it. Yet, all those users (school managers and a lot of old ladies) get it anyway.
- kmoser 2y ago
  What irks me most about the new Settings app is the lack of keyboard shortcuts. Sure, you can use the arrows to jump around the different elements but whatever happened to good old Alt-F, etc.? Plus, on a traditional menu bar, every keyboard shortcut is clearly labeled. Not so for Settings.
  - scotty79 2y ago
    Keyboard? That old timey thing our grandpa used to poke?
  - 2y ago
datavirtue 2y ago
Ok, then create that experience and leave the old one buried.
HappMacDonald 2y ago
Frankly just because the interface looks more tablet-like doesn't mean it's actually ergonomic for tablet use either. What they are presenting us is far more like the 90's Macromedia Flash style UI bloatware that hardware peripheral manufacturers also keep trying to foist onto us.
Brian_K_White 2y ago
Having a function simply not exist can not count towards making it more intuitive to control that function. Having simple controls that don't accomplish tasks is not a valid example of simple controls to accomplish tasks, and I'm shocked at anyone here not seeing it. If this theory of the users needs were true, then everyone would and should just use Chromebooks. The reason Windows exists and must be used by so many even when they don't want to, why a Chromebook or an iPad doesn't cut it, is Windows is where all the actual unimaginably varied productivity and special purpose software is. Not because of the middle of the road generic office and web apps. It's because of those PLUS the infinite other. It takes both to be useful not just the big mass in the middle of the bell curve. No matter how much bigger the numbers are for the common case, things need to cover all cases in order to be useful. Trying to reduce Windows down to a Chromebook or an iPad is silly when the Windows95 paradigm was already the simplification. Windows without the functionality of Windows is nothing. An iPad is far better at that than a simplified Widows can ever be. Even if somehow MS managed to make an excellent iPad, then what? iPads already exist and someone else is famous for them. Meanwhile, the thing they ripped out was their very value proposition itself. The differentiator that gives them a reason to exist at all. All that supposedly unwanted complicated stuff was litterally the primary value and differentiator of the product itself.
scotty79 2y ago
That could be somewhat true if Settings was feature complete. It's not really for iPad audience if you have to spin up RegEdit and google for an afternoon to do half of the stuff you could do by clicking around Control Panel. Also, ability to filter or sort a list wouldn't confuse iPad audience all that much, would it? The fact you are trying to copy someone shouldn't prevent you from making it better in some basic ways.
eviks 2y ago
When you lose functionality and speed, it becomes worse for any audience, including the imaginary iPad simpletons.

timeon 2y ago

Yeah macOS settings also suffered changes made for iPad users.

stuartd 2y ago
I’ve been a Mac user for more than 20 years and I may be in a minority of one, but I prefer the new settings. When I use my old Mac with the old settings I find myself thinking “so which image do I need to click to do what I want?” but in the new settings I can find what I need from the text labels.
- themadturk 2y ago
  I was a Mac user for about six years, went back to Windows through necessity, and returned to Mac four years ago. I don't hate the new Mac System Settings, but for me it's not as intuitive as the old version. Nor is the iPhone/iPad settings app easy to navigate. I don't completely understand the reasoning for the order or grouping of things. Then I realize I have no control over it, shrug my shoulders, and get on with finding and using the options I want.
2snakes 2y ago
New M5 may have a touch screen.

practicemaths 2y ago

I'm not sure I follow. I understand your point from a purely aesthetic standpoint. However the second that a commonly needed setting is required you're going a layer "deeper" (it's not because before it was at the first level) and that aesthetic is broken. I doubt the iPad first crowd is going to really intuit that.

tempest_ 2y ago

I would wager that most users find the settings using the search bar in whatever OS they are in. Android and the like will just link you directly to the settings and most peoples computer now a days is a phone, not a laptop.

mulmen 2y ago

> The new settings are far more intuitive for non-experience users who are more comfortable with an iPad than a traditional computer. Right but the iPad UX is also terrible. All I can really do is remove and recreate. There’s no way to actually fix anything. This isn’t necessary. Advanced options could be exposed in iOS too. It’s just bad design everywhere.

wvenable 2y ago

I use the old control panel but one should concede that it's really quite esoteric and the new control panel is comparatively more straight forward. I'm also amazed at software developers complaining about Microsoft's development process for the Settings app. They've been incrementally developing it for years -- which is a good thing -- and yet there so many complaints here that it didn't materialize fully formed on day one. It's like when talking about Microsoft everyone forgets how software development is actually done.

mulmen 2y ago
The Windows Control Panel was first released in 1985. That’s 39 years ago. That’s longer than the time between the Wright Brothers’ first flight and the first jet aircraft. How is Microsoft still doing fundamental rewrites of core features?
- wvenable 2y ago
  I don't understand your point. What are you trying to say?
  - mulmen 2y ago
    I’m saying if Microsoft hasn’t figured it out by now they never will.
    - wvenable 2y ago
      I still don't get what you mean. Clearly Windows isn't the same as it was 39 years ago and if it didn't change in all that time we wouldn't still be using it. Every operating system rewrites fundamental core features all the time.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- Terr_ 2y ago

throwawayk7h 2y ago

catering to developers is important in a completely different way than catering to typical users. I have one stomach for dinner and another for desert.

sideshowb 2y ago

And yet, back in the 90s most of the non-experienced users learned to use their computer nonetheless, in some cases gaining deeper understanding through the process of navigating the logically structured interface. Maybe it's more profitable to keep your users inexperienced. Easier to sell them cruft that way.

mystified5016 2y ago
Right? Most of us who were children at the time learned how to use 95/98 by ourselves. The vast majority of people had to learn how to use 95/98, and most had never touched a computer before. I don't think this demographic of tablet users who can't ever possibly accept another UI style actually exists. Poking at an unknown object to figure out how it works is not some ancient lost art. It's one of the most basic things that all humans do. We do this as infants. Gods, imagine how frightened and confused DOS users were by Windows.
- mamcx 2y ago
  Totally. I was there, porting a FoxPro DOS app to Visual FoxPro and one of the biggest fights with the boss was about why I was adding multiple windows in the app. And I remember that the mouse was something that confused users. And the joke about using the CD drawer to put the coffee there? I see it. Yet, all those users (school managers and a lot of old ladies) get it anyway.
kmoser 2y ago
What irks me most about the new Settings app is the lack of keyboard shortcuts. Sure, you can use the arrows to jump around the different elements but whatever happened to good old Alt-F, etc.? Plus, on a traditional menu bar, every keyboard shortcut is clearly labeled. Not so for Settings.
- scotty79 2y ago
  Keyboard? That old timey thing our grandpa used to poke?
- 2y ago

datavirtue 2y ago

Ok, then create that experience and leave the old one buried.

HappMacDonald 2y ago

Frankly just because the interface looks more tablet-like doesn't mean it's actually ergonomic for tablet use either. What they are presenting us is far more like the 90's Macromedia Flash style UI bloatware that hardware peripheral manufacturers also keep trying to foist onto us.

Brian_K_White 2y ago

Having a function simply not exist can not count towards making it more intuitive to control that function. Having simple controls that don't accomplish tasks is not a valid example of simple controls to accomplish tasks, and I'm shocked at anyone here not seeing it. If this theory of the users needs were true, then everyone would and should just use Chromebooks. The reason Windows exists and must be used by so many even when they don't want to, why a Chromebook or an iPad doesn't cut it, is Windows is where all the actual unimaginably varied productivity and special purpose software is. Not because of the middle of the road generic office and web apps. It's because of those PLUS the infinite other. It takes both to be useful not just the big mass in the middle of the bell curve. No matter how much bigger the numbers are for the common case, things need to cover all cases in order to be useful. Trying to reduce Windows down to a Chromebook or an iPad is silly when the Windows95 paradigm was already the simplification. Windows without the functionality of Windows is nothing. An iPad is far better at that than a simplified Widows can ever be. Even if somehow MS managed to make an excellent iPad, then what? iPads already exist and someone else is famous for them. Meanwhile, the thing they ripped out was their very value proposition itself. The differentiator that gives them a reason to exist at all. All that supposedly unwanted complicated stuff was litterally the primary value and differentiator of the product itself.

scotty79 2y ago

That could be somewhat true if Settings was feature complete. It's not really for iPad audience if you have to spin up RegEdit and google for an afternoon to do half of the stuff you could do by clicking around Control Panel. Also, ability to filter or sort a list wouldn't confuse iPad audience all that much, would it? The fact you are trying to copy someone shouldn't prevent you from making it better in some basic ways.

eviks 2y ago

When you lose functionality and speed, it becomes worse for any audience, including the imaginary iPad simpletons.