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> If you already have a smartphone, that's good enough. Sure, but I don't think nearly enough people are sufficiently critical of their need for a smartphone e

> If you already have a smartphone, that's good enough. Sure, but I don't think nearly enough people are sufficiently critical of their need for a smartphone either; I tend to think of it like cars, we've just allowed ourselves to let these devices service so much our day-to-day tasks that they seem like necessary appendages. If it goes away, we panic and buy another one, never stopping to sit with that absence. If my mac had a built-in cellular modem, I'd leave the phone at home most days. It's not useless, but it is completely incidental to my life in terms of what I actually would need it for. Likewise, if people didn't have cars, they wouldn't likely have a life that's only palatable because they have one.

jacobgkau 2y ago
To be fair, when you say "we've allowed cars to become necessary," you're talking about "we" as a society allowing that to happen-- me ditching my car after it breaks down tomorrow wouldn't be feasible unless I'm also willing to move to a much different part of my metro, get a new job, and find all-new hobbies and friend groups. That's not a decision most individuals have the power to make because they feel like trying it. On the other hand, as you point out, a lot of what phones can do can also be done with larger computers. Most workplaces don't require employees to use their personal cell phones on a daily basis. It's practically a fad to "disconnect" for a while, and most individuals would be able to get by while doing that, especially if they still have a working computer. Looking at this from a contradicting angle, cars actually have safety, environmental, and logistical concerns that make society's dependence on them a physically questionable idea. When I visited Japan for three weeks earlier this year and took public transportation everywhere, I was still using Google Maps on my cell phone to get just about everywhere, just like I do here at home in the US when I'm driving. So I think the "need" for a smartphone for navigation actually eclipses the societal need for cars to move people around. So I don't think the comparison you're making holds up very deeply, other than on a very abstract societal level. Smartphones have a much wider array of possible usages than cars, and cars have a much more individually critical role in peoples' lives than cell phones.
- brailsafe 2y ago
  > To be fair, when you say "we've allowed cars to become necessary," you're talking about "we" as a society allowing that to happen-- me ditching my car after it breaks down tomorrow wouldn't be feasible unless I'm also willing to move to a much different part of my metro, get a new job, and find all-new hobbies and friend groups. That's not a decision most individuals have the power to make because they feel like trying it. What you describe here is exactly what I was thinking about; individuals in various societies that have either personally or consequently let so many facets of their life depend exclusively on the presence of the car that it feels like it would all come crumbling down in its absence. If we don't have the car, we'll literally lose our social circles, our hobbies, our job!? One would have to be crazy. Prior to me being more or less forced into that situation, I felt the same way, but it turned out that nothing like that happened at all, I'm saving money, I have closer relationships than ever with the people that matter and more of them, I conserve money more easily, I'm in better shape, and I literally never think about driving. The only downside is that some leisure activities take a bit more forethought, and it would be more difficult to have a job that's truly in random far-flung, unpredictable locations. When I was forced to sit with it, I did refuse to live in the city that didn't help me do that. Any friends that I had then and don't now turned out to either not be friends at all, or people I just see every once in a while when I rent a car and drive 8 hours to see them. At no time since getting rid of it has the thought of getting another one seemed appealing enough to pay even the tax on a low budget used car. But to your analogous point, would I feel the same if I totally ditched the phone? I think ya probably, there's a decent chance of it. > When I visited Japan for three weeks earlier this year and took public transportation everywhere, I was still using Google Maps on my cell phone to get just about everywhere, just like I do here at home in the US when I'm driving. So I think the "need" for a smartphone for navigation actually eclipses the societal need for cars to move people around. Do you not feel like the only reason you do that is because it's what you've conditioned yourself to do? I also visited Japan for about the same length of stay for the first time last year, with my partner. While we did use maps somewhat, we only used it at the hostel for the first few days to get a vague sense of direction, and then used it only in the capacity that I would a static paper map or series of them, only in extremely rare travel circumstances have I ever purchased some temporary sim card or services, it's only rarely necessary and wildly detracts from my sense of adventure. Likewise, Tokyo is comically easy to navigate, it took a few days to get the hang of it and then I was good. Translation was pretty helpful (offline) but if I didn't have it I would have figured it out or bought a translation device. The amount of time I saved was incredible, and no I'm not being hyperbolic. If you frame it differently, would you not visit Japan if you didn't have a smartphone? Why? Mapping apps are no-doubt super useful, but you don't need directions to everywhere you need to go, it's a convenience that we come to rely on, and I never use it day to day unless I'm comparing transit time to biking. Routes aren't that unpredictable most of the time, and there's signage, if my phone dies I'm not suddenly helpless, and that seems important. Fwiw, I didn't read your comment as combative and I don't at all mean to be here, I just don't think we reconsider these things enough and let ourselves get too comfy with the conveniences of them, to such an extent that we no longer feel comfortable navigating the world, asking people for directions, talking to people on the street, making new friends, or diversifying our leisure. It's scary.
f6v 2y ago
> If my mac had a built-in cellular modem, I'd leave the phone at home most days. I can’t imagine having to open my wallet every time I want to pay for something. Apple Pay is my favorite feature out of all. Instant communication comes close second. The way we used to live… not being able to ask your partner if we have enough milk in the fridge.
- brailsafe 2y ago
  But.. none of that does or should require a smart phone really. Even for the cellular modem bit I mentioned, I could find another way to do it; people had devices for this before these black mirrors came around. But a cellular modem built into my laptop would reduce the amount of crap I have instead of add to it, and I'd still use the smart phone for other reasons at other times, just not if I'm going to a cafe to work necessarily. Using technological conveniences with more intentionality instead of chronically is where I think we screw ourselves. With the car comparison, my hunch is that a not insignificant contingent of car owning bi-pedal able-bodied people fit into the category of both not having any athletic pastimes/hobbies and also walk or move their body to get somewhere for less than 30 min a week. Just a hunch though. To do that without having had the influence of a car at some point would be remarkable; you'd have to be exceptionally sedentary, live immediately adjacent to a transit stop and do everything in your life right next to another. If I took the cost of a car and put that into anything else in my life, it's the difference between hypothetically having access to the most expensive outdoor hobbies that don't directly depend on cars themselves, like rally. Not to shit on cars as hobbies either though, not requiring a car means I could afford to have a project car just for the hell of it. Without an Apple Watch, I just.. tap my card, and retain 2 month's worth of food budget because I didn't get the damn thing.
  - f6v 2y ago
    > But.. none of that does or should require a smart phone really Well yes, it doesn’t. I used to ask people for directions without a world map, not understand the street signs in a foreign county, come how to a spouse telling me go buy milk since we’re out of it. Most of technological advances in the last 30 years are conveniences. You could argue ad absurdum since you don’t need most of technology to survive. Like, you don’t need a laptop if you think about it. You could just do all your work in the office.

jacobgkau 2y ago

To be fair, when you say "we've allowed cars to become necessary," you're talking about "we" as a society allowing that to happen-- me ditching my car after it breaks down tomorrow wouldn't be feasible unless I'm also willing to move to a much different part of my metro, get a new job, and find all-new hobbies and friend groups. That's not a decision most individuals have the power to make because they feel like trying it. On the other hand, as you point out, a lot of what phones can do can also be done with larger computers. Most workplaces don't require employees to use their personal cell phones on a daily basis. It's practically a fad to "disconnect" for a while, and most individuals would be able to get by while doing that, especially if they still have a working computer. Looking at this from a contradicting angle, cars actually have safety, environmental, and logistical concerns that make society's dependence on them a physically questionable idea. When I visited Japan for three weeks earlier this year and took public transportation everywhere, I was still using Google Maps on my cell phone to get just about everywhere, just like I do here at home in the US when I'm driving. So I think the "need" for a smartphone for navigation actually eclipses the societal need for cars to move people around. So I don't think the comparison you're making holds up very deeply, other than on a very abstract societal level. Smartphones have a much wider array of possible usages than cars, and cars have a much more individually critical role in peoples' lives than cell phones.

brailsafe 2y ago
> To be fair, when you say "we've allowed cars to become necessary," you're talking about "we" as a society allowing that to happen-- me ditching my car after it breaks down tomorrow wouldn't be feasible unless I'm also willing to move to a much different part of my metro, get a new job, and find all-new hobbies and friend groups. That's not a decision most individuals have the power to make because they feel like trying it. What you describe here is exactly what I was thinking about; individuals in various societies that have either personally or consequently let so many facets of their life depend exclusively on the presence of the car that it feels like it would all come crumbling down in its absence. If we don't have the car, we'll literally lose our social circles, our hobbies, our job!? One would have to be crazy. Prior to me being more or less forced into that situation, I felt the same way, but it turned out that nothing like that happened at all, I'm saving money, I have closer relationships than ever with the people that matter and more of them, I conserve money more easily, I'm in better shape, and I literally never think about driving. The only downside is that some leisure activities take a bit more forethought, and it would be more difficult to have a job that's truly in random far-flung, unpredictable locations. When I was forced to sit with it, I did refuse to live in the city that didn't help me do that. Any friends that I had then and don't now turned out to either not be friends at all, or people I just see every once in a while when I rent a car and drive 8 hours to see them. At no time since getting rid of it has the thought of getting another one seemed appealing enough to pay even the tax on a low budget used car. But to your analogous point, would I feel the same if I totally ditched the phone? I think ya probably, there's a decent chance of it. > When I visited Japan for three weeks earlier this year and took public transportation everywhere, I was still using Google Maps on my cell phone to get just about everywhere, just like I do here at home in the US when I'm driving. So I think the "need" for a smartphone for navigation actually eclipses the societal need for cars to move people around. Do you not feel like the only reason you do that is because it's what you've conditioned yourself to do? I also visited Japan for about the same length of stay for the first time last year, with my partner. While we did use maps somewhat, we only used it at the hostel for the first few days to get a vague sense of direction, and then used it only in the capacity that I would a static paper map or series of them, only in extremely rare travel circumstances have I ever purchased some temporary sim card or services, it's only rarely necessary and wildly detracts from my sense of adventure. Likewise, Tokyo is comically easy to navigate, it took a few days to get the hang of it and then I was good. Translation was pretty helpful (offline) but if I didn't have it I would have figured it out or bought a translation device. The amount of time I saved was incredible, and no I'm not being hyperbolic. If you frame it differently, would you not visit Japan if you didn't have a smartphone? Why? Mapping apps are no-doubt super useful, but you don't need directions to everywhere you need to go, it's a convenience that we come to rely on, and I never use it day to day unless I'm comparing transit time to biking. Routes aren't that unpredictable most of the time, and there's signage, if my phone dies I'm not suddenly helpless, and that seems important. Fwiw, I didn't read your comment as combative and I don't at all mean to be here, I just don't think we reconsider these things enough and let ourselves get too comfy with the conveniences of them, to such an extent that we no longer feel comfortable navigating the world, asking people for directions, talking to people on the street, making new friends, or diversifying our leisure. It's scary.

f6v 2y ago

> If my mac had a built-in cellular modem, I'd leave the phone at home most days. I can’t imagine having to open my wallet every time I want to pay for something. Apple Pay is my favorite feature out of all. Instant communication comes close second. The way we used to live… not being able to ask your partner if we have enough milk in the fridge.

brailsafe 2y ago
But.. none of that does or should require a smart phone really. Even for the cellular modem bit I mentioned, I could find another way to do it; people had devices for this before these black mirrors came around. But a cellular modem built into my laptop would reduce the amount of crap I have instead of add to it, and I'd still use the smart phone for other reasons at other times, just not if I'm going to a cafe to work necessarily. Using technological conveniences with more intentionality instead of chronically is where I think we screw ourselves. With the car comparison, my hunch is that a not insignificant contingent of car owning bi-pedal able-bodied people fit into the category of both not having any athletic pastimes/hobbies and also walk or move their body to get somewhere for less than 30 min a week. Just a hunch though. To do that without having had the influence of a car at some point would be remarkable; you'd have to be exceptionally sedentary, live immediately adjacent to a transit stop and do everything in your life right next to another. If I took the cost of a car and put that into anything else in my life, it's the difference between hypothetically having access to the most expensive outdoor hobbies that don't directly depend on cars themselves, like rally. Not to shit on cars as hobbies either though, not requiring a car means I could afford to have a project car just for the hell of it. Without an Apple Watch, I just.. tap my card, and retain 2 month's worth of food budget because I didn't get the damn thing.
- f6v 2y ago
  > But.. none of that does or should require a smart phone really Well yes, it doesn’t. I used to ask people for directions without a world map, not understand the street signs in a foreign county, come how to a spouse telling me go buy milk since we’re out of it. Most of technological advances in the last 30 years are conveniences. You could argue ad absurdum since you don’t need most of technology to survive. Like, you don’t need a laptop if you think about it. You could just do all your work in the office.