4 ms·

Navy Could Sideline 17 Support Ships Due to Manpower Issues

17 points by ilamont 2y ago

bell-cot 2y ago
Oof. Historically, navies that couldn't manage to man their ships usually lost.
- Log_out_ 2y ago
  automate all the things as new paradigm?
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Related: Navy again lowers requirements as it struggles to meet recruitment goals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169676 - Jan 2024 (74 comments) http://web.archive.org/web/20240127200509/https://www.stripes.com/branches/navy/2024-01-26/navy-lowers-education-requirements-recruitment-struggles-12806279.html http://web.archive.org/web/20240127200509/https://www.stripe...
- snakeyjake 2y ago
  Not related. USNS ships are crewed mainly (80%+) by civilian mariners. The US Navy does not recruit civilian mariners for enlistment like with USN ships. They hire them from the wider civilian workforce. The available workforce is too small due to a variety of reasons but the main reason is that $65k-250k isn't enough for a physically strenuous job with strict licensing requirements where you're away from your family floating out in the middle of the Indian Ocean with no port calls for half the year, minimum. The US Navy, and therefore the Military Sealift Command, has an operational tempo that keeps increasing and qualified mariners generally do not have trouble finding employment with better working conditions.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    It sounds like what you’re saying is the Navy is facing a labor shortage due to not making the employment offer attractive enough, correct? Based on the previous thread and this one, it appears the Navy’s offer to both labor cohorts is insufficient. Both enlisted and civilian mariners are able to find better work life balance and compensation elsewhere, hence my comment. “No one wants to work anymore.” I believe is the colloquialism for this situation.
    - snakeyjake 2y ago
      The Navy can only afford to spend what it has been allowed to spend. “Nobody wants to work anymore” is a pejorative phrase meant to denigrate workers. Nobody is denigrating mariners, from the Navy to analysts to me, they are just expressing the reality of the situation and attempting to adapt. I don’t understand why a lack of effusive praise is taken as negativity.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I agree with everything you’ve written. The US Navy is simply not paying workers enough, and does not adequately value the labor. This is another example of a “labor shortage” that is really just a lack of will to appropriately compensate. Pay them more.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
        Move the labor shortage to a different part of the economy.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
      - xnyan 2y ago
        >The Navy can only afford to spend what it has been allowed to spend. I argue it's clearly mismanagement by navel leaders who love toys and see people as cheap. The US Navy gets a very predictable and consistent budget, these days around 200 billion a year plus 50 billion for the marines. They take that budget and put it into various pools, two of which are new ships and labor costs. If they don't have the money to pay a wage that would attract enough sailors to fully staff the fleet, it means they got the ratio wrong and have been overspending on ship at the cost of adequate labor.
  - jordanb 2y ago
    Biggest problem for MSC is leave. You are supposed to be hitched to a ship for, say, 6 months. But then they can't find your relief, so you have to stay. You can imagine someone who was supposed to be onboard for 6 months being forced to stay for 9 or 12 months, when they finally do get off they say "never again."
creer 2y ago
Interesting also that several of these ships seem very recent construction.
simonblack 2y ago
Poor thinking. Better to reduce combat ships than support ships. Q: What do you call a destroyer that's out of ammo? A: A paperweight.
- jordanb 2y ago
  This is a problem with Military Sealift Command, which operates these vessels with civilian mariners (CIVMAR). MSC has had recruitment and retainment problems for a long time. These problems compound because, for instance, mariners are denied leave due to staffing shortages, causing more mariners to leave the service entirely. CIVMARs were treated really badly during COVID which ended up creating a slow-moving problem that is now coming to a head with a collapse of the service.

17 points by ilamont 2y ago

bell-cot 2y ago

Oof. Historically, navies that couldn't manage to man their ships usually lost.

Log_out_ 2y ago
automate all the things as new paradigm?

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Related: Navy again lowers requirements as it struggles to meet recruitment goals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39169676 - Jan 2024 (74 comments) http://web.archive.org/web/20240127200509/https://www.stripes.com/branches/navy/2024-01-26/navy-lowers-education-requirements-recruitment-struggles-12806279.html http://web.archive.org/web/20240127200509/https://www.stripe...

snakeyjake 2y ago
Not related. USNS ships are crewed mainly (80%+) by civilian mariners. The US Navy does not recruit civilian mariners for enlistment like with USN ships. They hire them from the wider civilian workforce. The available workforce is too small due to a variety of reasons but the main reason is that $65k-250k isn't enough for a physically strenuous job with strict licensing requirements where you're away from your family floating out in the middle of the Indian Ocean with no port calls for half the year, minimum. The US Navy, and therefore the Military Sealift Command, has an operational tempo that keeps increasing and qualified mariners generally do not have trouble finding employment with better working conditions.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  It sounds like what you’re saying is the Navy is facing a labor shortage due to not making the employment offer attractive enough, correct? Based on the previous thread and this one, it appears the Navy’s offer to both labor cohorts is insufficient. Both enlisted and civilian mariners are able to find better work life balance and compensation elsewhere, hence my comment. “No one wants to work anymore.” I believe is the colloquialism for this situation.
  - snakeyjake 2y ago
    The Navy can only afford to spend what it has been allowed to spend. “Nobody wants to work anymore” is a pejorative phrase meant to denigrate workers. Nobody is denigrating mariners, from the Navy to analysts to me, they are just expressing the reality of the situation and attempting to adapt. I don’t understand why a lack of effusive praise is taken as negativity.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I agree with everything you’ve written. The US Navy is simply not paying workers enough, and does not adequately value the labor. This is another example of a “labor shortage” that is really just a lack of will to appropriately compensate. Pay them more.
      - mensetmanusman 2y ago
        Move the labor shortage to a different part of the economy.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
    - xnyan 2y ago
      >The Navy can only afford to spend what it has been allowed to spend. I argue it's clearly mismanagement by navel leaders who love toys and see people as cheap. The US Navy gets a very predictable and consistent budget, these days around 200 billion a year plus 50 billion for the marines. They take that budget and put it into various pools, two of which are new ships and labor costs. If they don't have the money to pay a wage that would attract enough sailors to fully staff the fleet, it means they got the ratio wrong and have been overspending on ship at the cost of adequate labor.
- jordanb 2y ago
  Biggest problem for MSC is leave. You are supposed to be hitched to a ship for, say, 6 months. But then they can't find your relief, so you have to stay. You can imagine someone who was supposed to be onboard for 6 months being forced to stay for 9 or 12 months, when they finally do get off they say "never again."

creer 2y ago

Interesting also that several of these ships seem very recent construction.

simonblack 2y ago

Poor thinking. Better to reduce combat ships than support ships. Q: What do you call a destroyer that's out of ammo? A: A paperweight.

jordanb 2y ago
This is a problem with Military Sealift Command, which operates these vessels with civilian mariners (CIVMAR). MSC has had recruitment and retainment problems for a long time. These problems compound because, for instance, mariners are denied leave due to staffing shortages, causing more mariners to leave the service entirely. CIVMARs were treated really badly during COVID which ended up creating a slow-moving problem that is now coming to a head with a collapse of the service.