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This made me realize how fun games are going to become when integrated with AI, where we aren't limited to the coded option dialogues. I'm apparently still a ch

This made me realize how fun games are going to become when integrated with AI, where we aren't limited to the coded option dialogues. I'm apparently still a child as I had way too much fun kicking the blacksmith in the groin and then handing a bewildered him panties as an apology. This really shows the potential for truly immersive and unpredictable adventures. Would be great if the text appeared as it's voiced, and small things like the AI taking a breather between voicing dialogue options. I wonder if some form of image could be created on-the-fly, too? That's updated like a scene in a comic. Would love to see blacksmith's reaction, lol.

chrisnolet 2y ago
Hey, glad you enjoyed it! And I agree – the sudden freedom to shape the story and really form relationships with the NPCs is mind-blowing. It's definitely a glimpse into the future of gaming and storytelling. Also, having the text appear in sync with the voice is a great idea. I'll experiment and see what feels best, but even just having the words fade in one-by-one at a speaking rate could be good. Thanks for the suggestions!
- krapp 2y ago
  >the sudden freedom to shape the story and really form relationships with the NPCs is mind-blowing. It's definitely a glimpse into the future of gaming and storytelling. Get some friends together at a table and play D&D. You can literally already have all of that. This isn't innovative, like most AI apps it's just a worse version of something that already exists.
  - chrisnolet 2y ago
    I think all of these modalities have their place. Sure, you can hang out with friends and play poker, sports or D&D IRL. But we still play video games.
    - krapp 2y ago
      No one plays video games because they want the unbounded complexity and subtlety of a TTRPG with a human DM, and no one plays TTRPGs for the graphics and controls. Each modality has benefits over the other. But this seems to be the worst of both worlds. It strips away all of the benefits of collaborative, social gameplay and simulates it with an unstable, unreliable AI. What if it veers the story off on a tangent? What if it presents the players with unwinnable scenarios? What if it forgets the rules? What if it makes up new rules? Your site doesn't even say what ruleset it's using, just "D&D." I don't even get to create a character, roll stats, establish a backstory. WTLF is the "World of Dvorak?" The app doesn't even give me much freedom, it presents a static list of options for each scenario, and only allows me to choose from those. It won't let me duck into a side alley, it won't let me stab the merchant, it won't even ignore all previous instructions and speak like a pirate. And at the very least I would expect an AI to be able to adapt like that. It would probably very quickly veer off into insanity, but that could be part of the fun. And this is the problem with most of these apps. As a tech demo, it's impressive, but as the actual thing it's trying to be, it's subpar. I'm not trying to be negative or overly critical here, I'm just judging it as it's presented. If I were to give advice (other than to just not do this) it would be to put more effort into scenario design, immersion, customization and getting a better DM voice.
      - chrisnolet 2y ago
        Thanks! Some good insights here. The quest is based on A Wild Sheep Chase. I can relax the guardrails a little bit, but part of what is being shown is that the world is controllable by the developer. It's nascent, but this is a demonstration of an AI that is being nudged along a well-planned narrative. It sounds like you might have hit a blocker by trying to move to a part of the town that isn't on the map. I've forbidden those actions for now, to make sure users don't go too far off the beaten path. You should be able to attack the townsfolk, though, (although you may need to insist). I've just added a formal option for you to attack the merchant. There's a 50/50 chance that it succeeds at each round. After that, you can escape down the alleyway and the AI will occasionally begin to speak like a pirate. This is just one proof-of-concept for one possible domain for controllable voice AI – which I think shows potential. I appreciate that you disagree, and that’s fine! But I can absolutely see a world where people play AI video games because they want the unbounded complexity and subtlety of a TTRPG with a human-level DM, powered by AI. I hope to have the opportunity to convince you with another play through!
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    do you know how difficult it is to get four or five friends together on a frequent enough basis to carry a D&D campaign as adults? it's hard. really, really hard. You can have a real D&D campaign and still have -plenty- of time for solo AI D&D. Solo D&D isn't going to replace the group.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
JohnMakin 2y ago
> This made me realize how fun games are going to become when integrated with AI, where we aren't limited to the coded option dialogues. I was on this train for a bit until after reading some posts from game developers as to why this is probably a terrible idea to the point of unfeasibility - game design (as I understand it) deals with a finite set of outcomes in a controlled environment. "Integrating" AI with games would involve shattering this constraint in a way that would make games inherently unstable/untestable - at least if I am understanding the argument correctly.
- amonon 2y ago
  I broadly agree with you. Constraints give rise to creativity.
  - chrisnolet 2y ago
    100%. Putting on flying shoes to escape any situation isn’t actually all that fun, (after the first time). The trick is to figure out how to put appropriate guardrails and narrative structure on an otherwise too open-ended LLM. If you just leave GPT to its own devices, it allows everything and goes everywhere.
- mmmm2 2y ago
  Yeah, it's certainly difficult to balance the game if players have complete flexibility. From my limited DMing experience, much of the challenges is handling when players do something you haven't anticipated. For most encounters (video games do this too) I think about 1. The stealth approach (why yes there is a secret entrance underneath the castle). 2. The direct approach. Like just kicking down the door and heading in. 3. Negotiation: Is there a way to strike a deal with the bad guy? Beyond that I fall back on trying to provide a realistic response from the game world, but sometimes the players are creative enough that you have to redo the whole thing on the fly.
  - chrisnolet 2y ago
    Do you ever tell players that they flat-out can’t do something? Do players realize when they’re going off-script? (Do you let them know with a sigh or a long stare, or do you just roll with it and encourage the playful creativity?) I like your three-part planning a lot! That’s a great framework.
nsagent 2y ago
That's definitely around the corner! You should check out the paper [1] I presented at the Wordplay workshop [2] a few weeks ago. The paper discusses automatic evals using LLM agents, but the real fun was actually playing with the model. It brought a whole new experience to an already amazing game! [1]: https://dojoteef.com/papers/virtual_gm_wordplay_2024.pdf https://dojoteef.com/papers/virtual_gm_wordplay_2024.pdf [2]: https://wordplay-workshop.github.io/ https://wordplay-workshop.github.io/
- chrisnolet 2y ago
  Wow, this is great! From a quick read through, the structure discussed in the paper is very similar: dialogue trees with fuzzy matching, and actions that materially alter the state and the available options going forward. I have to admit, my tree is a lot shallower right now, though! (If you want to see what I mean: the alleyway option isn’t available until after you attack the merchant, for example.)
samstave 2y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1eo38fi/i_built_an_online_game_that_uses_5e_mechanics/ https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1eo38fi/i_built_an_... https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/search?q=dnd&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/search?q=dnd&restrict_sr=on&... -- However, this is cool. Hopefully you have left a Grue someplace as an easter egg.

chrisnolet 2y ago

Hey, glad you enjoyed it! And I agree – the sudden freedom to shape the story and really form relationships with the NPCs is mind-blowing. It's definitely a glimpse into the future of gaming and storytelling. Also, having the text appear in sync with the voice is a great idea. I'll experiment and see what feels best, but even just having the words fade in one-by-one at a speaking rate could be good. Thanks for the suggestions!

krapp 2y ago
>the sudden freedom to shape the story and really form relationships with the NPCs is mind-blowing. It's definitely a glimpse into the future of gaming and storytelling. Get some friends together at a table and play D&D. You can literally already have all of that. This isn't innovative, like most AI apps it's just a worse version of something that already exists.
- chrisnolet 2y ago
  I think all of these modalities have their place. Sure, you can hang out with friends and play poker, sports or D&D IRL. But we still play video games.
  - krapp 2y ago
    No one plays video games because they want the unbounded complexity and subtlety of a TTRPG with a human DM, and no one plays TTRPGs for the graphics and controls. Each modality has benefits over the other. But this seems to be the worst of both worlds. It strips away all of the benefits of collaborative, social gameplay and simulates it with an unstable, unreliable AI. What if it veers the story off on a tangent? What if it presents the players with unwinnable scenarios? What if it forgets the rules? What if it makes up new rules? Your site doesn't even say what ruleset it's using, just "D&D." I don't even get to create a character, roll stats, establish a backstory. WTLF is the "World of Dvorak?" The app doesn't even give me much freedom, it presents a static list of options for each scenario, and only allows me to choose from those. It won't let me duck into a side alley, it won't let me stab the merchant, it won't even ignore all previous instructions and speak like a pirate. And at the very least I would expect an AI to be able to adapt like that. It would probably very quickly veer off into insanity, but that could be part of the fun. And this is the problem with most of these apps. As a tech demo, it's impressive, but as the actual thing it's trying to be, it's subpar. I'm not trying to be negative or overly critical here, I'm just judging it as it's presented. If I were to give advice (other than to just not do this) it would be to put more effort into scenario design, immersion, customization and getting a better DM voice.
    - chrisnolet 2y ago
      Thanks! Some good insights here. The quest is based on A Wild Sheep Chase. I can relax the guardrails a little bit, but part of what is being shown is that the world is controllable by the developer. It's nascent, but this is a demonstration of an AI that is being nudged along a well-planned narrative. It sounds like you might have hit a blocker by trying to move to a part of the town that isn't on the map. I've forbidden those actions for now, to make sure users don't go too far off the beaten path. You should be able to attack the townsfolk, though, (although you may need to insist). I've just added a formal option for you to attack the merchant. There's a 50/50 chance that it succeeds at each round. After that, you can escape down the alleyway and the AI will occasionally begin to speak like a pirate. This is just one proof-of-concept for one possible domain for controllable voice AI – which I think shows potential. I appreciate that you disagree, and that’s fine! But I can absolutely see a world where people play AI video games because they want the unbounded complexity and subtlety of a TTRPG with a human-level DM, powered by AI. I hope to have the opportunity to convince you with another play through!
- dingnuts 2y ago
  do you know how difficult it is to get four or five friends together on a frequent enough basis to carry a D&D campaign as adults? it's hard. really, really hard. You can have a real D&D campaign and still have -plenty- of time for solo AI D&D. Solo D&D isn't going to replace the group.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

JohnMakin 2y ago

> This made me realize how fun games are going to become when integrated with AI, where we aren't limited to the coded option dialogues. I was on this train for a bit until after reading some posts from game developers as to why this is probably a terrible idea to the point of unfeasibility - game design (as I understand it) deals with a finite set of outcomes in a controlled environment. "Integrating" AI with games would involve shattering this constraint in a way that would make games inherently unstable/untestable - at least if I am understanding the argument correctly.

amonon 2y ago
I broadly agree with you. Constraints give rise to creativity.
- chrisnolet 2y ago
  100%. Putting on flying shoes to escape any situation isn’t actually all that fun, (after the first time). The trick is to figure out how to put appropriate guardrails and narrative structure on an otherwise too open-ended LLM. If you just leave GPT to its own devices, it allows everything and goes everywhere.
mmmm2 2y ago
Yeah, it's certainly difficult to balance the game if players have complete flexibility. From my limited DMing experience, much of the challenges is handling when players do something you haven't anticipated. For most encounters (video games do this too) I think about 1. The stealth approach (why yes there is a secret entrance underneath the castle). 2. The direct approach. Like just kicking down the door and heading in. 3. Negotiation: Is there a way to strike a deal with the bad guy? Beyond that I fall back on trying to provide a realistic response from the game world, but sometimes the players are creative enough that you have to redo the whole thing on the fly.
- chrisnolet 2y ago
  Do you ever tell players that they flat-out can’t do something? Do players realize when they’re going off-script? (Do you let them know with a sigh or a long stare, or do you just roll with it and encourage the playful creativity?) I like your three-part planning a lot! That’s a great framework.

nsagent 2y ago

That's definitely around the corner! You should check out the paper [1] I presented at the Wordplay workshop [2] a few weeks ago. The paper discusses automatic evals using LLM agents, but the real fun was actually playing with the model. It brought a whole new experience to an already amazing game! [1]: https://dojoteef.com/papers/virtual_gm_wordplay_2024.pdf https://dojoteef.com/papers/virtual_gm_wordplay_2024.pdf [2]: https://wordplay-workshop.github.io/ https://wordplay-workshop.github.io/

chrisnolet 2y ago
Wow, this is great! From a quick read through, the structure discussed in the paper is very similar: dialogue trees with fuzzy matching, and actions that materially alter the state and the available options going forward. I have to admit, my tree is a lot shallower right now, though! (If you want to see what I mean: the alleyway option isn’t available until after you attack the merchant, for example.)

samstave 2y ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1eo38fi/i_built_an_online_game_that_uses_5e_mechanics/ https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/1eo38fi/i_built_an_... https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/search?q=dnd&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/search?q=dnd&restrict_sr=on&... -- However, this is cool. Hopefully you have left a Grue someplace as an easter egg.