4 ms·

>> When I say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm. It is a great engineering

>> When I say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm. It is a great engineering firm, but people invest in a company because they want to make money. --Harry Stonecipher, 2004 > I think that outsourcing was a symptom of this disease. Not MBA cancer, not poor software, not anything other than a deliberate cultural shift which led to all those other things. That is the MBA cancer. Focusing on shareholder value instead of making a great product.

jvanderbot 2y ago
Yeah, I suppose like the biological cancer, there's not a clear cause effect relationship between a reshaping culture, and then MBAs or "Ship-it" mentality taking over engineering oversight and scheduling. It's a runaway effect. I tend to place more blame on a deliberate reshaping by the top individual, rather than some accidental metastasizing of the problem. I'm straining the analogy.
- RansomStark 2y ago
  I've always seen the cancer as MBAs only hire MBAs, and that's how it grows. Its very difficult to get to a senior level in most organizations without an MBA.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    >> reshaping by the top individual > MBAs only hire MBAs Maybe the CEO in such cases often is an MBA and you are a bit talking about the same thing, just from different perspectives? (Looking at the one person, vs the people, at the top?) https://fortune.com/education/articles/how-valuable-is-an-mba-its-the-go-to-degree-for-nearly-40-of-fortune-1000-execs/ https://fortune.com/education/articles/how-valuable-is-an-mb... > MBA grads made up nearly 40% of C-suite executives on the 2022 Fortune 1000 list Wow so many (I think), but maybe they aren't CEOs. Here's 43% from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MBA/comments/u26w7r/from_mba_to_fortune_500_us_ceo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MBA/comments/u26w7r/from_mba_to_for... > I have compiled the following for the 2021 Fortune 500 US companies (the last global one I've seen is from FT in 2015 https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/ https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/): > 43% of CEOs have an MBA Anyway,what happens if the CEO is an engineer, and everyone reporting to him/her is an MBA :-)
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      Not arguing anything in particular, just want to point out it's not completely unusual to be both. Many of the top "Chief" positions I've worked under were former PhD engineers and researchers who went and got an MBA to move up. The legendary director of JPL, Charles Elachi, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Elachi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Elachi And many of my former bosses. Maybe that's a symptom of the same disease ("without mba you cannot rule"), but I think it doesn't necessarily mean an MBA holder is a bad candidate for leadership.
      - cutemonster 2y ago
        > went and got an MBA to move up. Interesting! (Imagine the opposite: Getting an engineering degree, to become a Fortune 500 CEO when already having an MBA. In aviation for example) > doesn't necessarily mean an MBA holder is a bad candidate for leadership Yeah, and that many MBAs might rather indicate that there are many who are really good at it? ... Although not the Boing minded ones apparently
Gibbon1 2y ago
I've come to the conclusion that just like we require licenses and certain degrees to work on safety critical fields we should extend that to things you can't have in order to work for companies that do manufacturing, starting with MBA's are legally ineligible for hire at companies like Boeing.

jvanderbot 2y ago

Yeah, I suppose like the biological cancer, there's not a clear cause effect relationship between a reshaping culture, and then MBAs or "Ship-it" mentality taking over engineering oversight and scheduling. It's a runaway effect. I tend to place more blame on a deliberate reshaping by the top individual, rather than some accidental metastasizing of the problem. I'm straining the analogy.

RansomStark 2y ago
I've always seen the cancer as MBAs only hire MBAs, and that's how it grows. Its very difficult to get to a senior level in most organizations without an MBA.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  >> reshaping by the top individual > MBAs only hire MBAs Maybe the CEO in such cases often is an MBA and you are a bit talking about the same thing, just from different perspectives? (Looking at the one person, vs the people, at the top?) https://fortune.com/education/articles/how-valuable-is-an-mba-its-the-go-to-degree-for-nearly-40-of-fortune-1000-execs/ https://fortune.com/education/articles/how-valuable-is-an-mb... > MBA grads made up nearly 40% of C-suite executives on the 2022 Fortune 1000 list Wow so many (I think), but maybe they aren't CEOs. Here's 43% from Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MBA/comments/u26w7r/from_mba_to_fortune_500_us_ceo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MBA/comments/u26w7r/from_mba_to_for... > I have compiled the following for the 2021 Fortune 500 US companies (the last global one I've seen is from FT in 2015 https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/ https://ig.ft.com/sites/mba-to-ceo/): > 43% of CEOs have an MBA Anyway,what happens if the CEO is an engineer, and everyone reporting to him/her is an MBA :-)
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    Not arguing anything in particular, just want to point out it's not completely unusual to be both. Many of the top "Chief" positions I've worked under were former PhD engineers and researchers who went and got an MBA to move up. The legendary director of JPL, Charles Elachi, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Elachi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Elachi And many of my former bosses. Maybe that's a symptom of the same disease ("without mba you cannot rule"), but I think it doesn't necessarily mean an MBA holder is a bad candidate for leadership.
    - cutemonster 2y ago
      > went and got an MBA to move up. Interesting! (Imagine the opposite: Getting an engineering degree, to become a Fortune 500 CEO when already having an MBA. In aviation for example) > doesn't necessarily mean an MBA holder is a bad candidate for leadership Yeah, and that many MBAs might rather indicate that there are many who are really good at it? ... Although not the Boing minded ones apparently

Gibbon1 2y ago

I've come to the conclusion that just like we require licenses and certain degrees to work on safety critical fields we should extend that to things you can't have in order to work for companies that do manufacturing, starting with MBA's are legally ineligible for hire at companies like Boeing.