7 ms·

About the browser choice screen in the EU

48 points by colinprince 2y ago

2Gkashmiri 2y ago
https://developer.apple.com/support/browser-choice-screen/#austria https://developer.apple.com/support/browser-choice-screen/#a... why is firefox ranked so low in popularity to other essentially wrappers of safari? marketing perhaps?
- Do123 2y ago
  They are listed alphabetically.
  - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
    apologies
    - s_dev 2y ago
      They aren't in alphabetical order. Simply looking at the list will confirm that.
      - philippgitpush 2y ago
        Do123 was not referring to the screenshots, but to the lists below, which are in alphabetical order, while the screenshots aren't.
  - rlv-dan 2y ago
    I remember hearing that the band "A" took their name so that they would be put first the record shops.
    - markovs_gun 2y ago
      Amazon and Apple both picked their names to show up early on in lists, and anyone who remembers the phone book days remembers all sorts of plumbers with names like "AAA plumbing"
      - Symbiote 2y ago
        The British company Acorn Computers picked their name to appear even earlier in the alphabet. Acer of Taiwan beat that, is there any company earlier than Acer? (Acorn was the original "A" in ARM, the Acorn Risc Machine.)
        NikkiA 2y ago
        There have been thousands of 'Aardvark Computers' around the world, but afaik they have all been support/service companies rather than manufacturers.
  - kwanbix 2y ago
    Ecosia, Brave, Edge, You.com, Chrome, Firefox, DuckDuckGo, Qwant. They are not list alphabetically, but randomly.
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    It would be pretty funny if Apple switched this to sorted alphabetically by provider name and then Apple's Safari would be on top.
    - DiscourseFan 2y ago
      "funny"
- elashri 2y ago
  > on a user’s device browsers will be shown in a randomized order per user
- philippgitpush 2y ago
  Your wording gives the impression that you are implying that Firefox is different. clarifying for anyone who doesn't know: Firefox on iOS is just another Safari wrapper, just like the others.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    I think the simplest explanation is that people like to stick to what they use on desktop. Firefox has a 6% market share there so it makes sense it would also be lower on mobile.
  - malermeister 2y ago
    For now. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1882872 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1882872
roenxi 2y ago
This design looks mildly anti-user, they're being asked to make a choice they probably know nothing about with no hints about which is the best option to pick. I assume this is legislatively required, so Apple really should be allowed to say "we recommend Safari" or to put it first in the list. A lot of people are using iOS specifically for the social contract that Apple will make this sort of decision for them.
- sneak 2y ago
  The point of the DMA, for better or worse, is that it is no longer allowed to outsource this decision to your OS vendor. Perhaps if you think this is anti-user, then it may be logically congruent to conclude that the DMA is mildly anti-user. I would agree, generally speaking. That said, what is most convenient and easy for most users is ultimately bad for society and markets. The lack of sideloading specifically on iOS is a big danger, but day to day protects many users from malware.
  - kwanbix 2y ago
    How is the DMA mildly anti-user?
    - sneak 2y ago
      It removes the ability of a user to choose a vendor that will 100% abstract away the responsibility of keeping a phone secure and free of malware. It requires that the user educate themselves a fair amount to input answers to decisions about browsers such as the one discussed here, versus allowing their OS vendor to just do whatever they think is best. Many users don’t want more options, they just want an opinionated and reasoned one-size-fits-all experience. Such a desire is incompatible with a fair and open market for browser software or app stores, for example. Allowing a user to choose any app store means the user can no longer choose not to ever be able to choose an app store, for example. This increases the chance for malware or deceptive software to end up on the user’s device. The only way I can think of squaring this circle is for Apple to sell two different SKUs of every iPhone: one that can sideload (and allow apps such as alternate app store apps to install other apps), and one that cannot. Then users can choose their overall security model once at time of purchase. Absent that, the DMA is choosing the “you must have more choices” choice for users, whether users prefer that or not. Many users choose iOS because the security choices are already made for them and can’t get fucked up by their own configuring.
psyonity 2y ago
While I think this change is great, I am not directly convinced Safari should be included in the list by their own rules, considering the app has not been explicitly downloaded by at least 5,000 users in the prior calendar year.
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  I knew that hackers still would not be satisfied. Thanks for spending some time to invent a reason to continue raging against Apple, so that the rest can go back to work.
- threeseed 2y ago
  Far more than 5,000 users have downloaded the Safari Technology Preview.
  - joekrill 2y ago
    > If a developer has multiple browser apps, only the most downloaded app will be eligible Then that would imply that only the Safari Technology Preview should be eligible.
- brookst 2y ago
  That seems like a strange claim. Any source for it? Safari can be deleted on iOS and I find it hard to believe that less than 5000 people do that and then re-download it a year.
  - Diti 2y ago
    I live in the EU and I can’t delete Safari on iOS. I, too, am curious about that claim.
  - TheCleric 2y ago
    I think they mean as an App Store download (since it comes with the phone, so therefore has 0 app downloads).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ojosilva 2y ago
Off-topic: why does the Firefox icon has that unappealing black background? I don't understand why lately on iOS, MacOS, Android etc the app icon has that black (dark blue?) background. The Firefox website does not use a dark background icon anywhere, there's not one available in the design kit, although it does mention the preference for either light or dark backgrounds due to the color gradients being potentially confusing with mid-tones and color mixes. I still don't see the need to distribute such a broken-looking one - it makes it look like they messed up the transparency setting on a png somewhere. Compare it to Chrome's (in the OP) which looks fresh, lively and friendly.
- mlindner 2y ago
  It's a dark purple, and it happened when Apple changed the design language such that all applications need to look like rounded squares. I dearly miss skeuomorphism. Making everything look identical is just horrible for ergonomics.
  - episteme 2y ago
    This doesn't explain why they made it a dark purple, the other apps have white backgrounds.
  - b3orn 2y ago
    > all applications need to look like rounded squares. Looking at the screenshots there are several browsers (Chrome, Edge, Brave and even Safari) for which the icon neither has a background nor rounded corners.
    - medstrom 2y ago
      They do have backgrounds. White backgrounds. You don't see it there but it'd be obvious on your homescreen.
    - pjerem 2y ago
      If you look closer, they all have rounded corners, they just have white backgrounds.
throwaway13337 2y ago
Relatedly, on most browsers, you cannot choose the search engine you use. They give you a small list. This is an issue for e.g. Kagi or other non-standard search engine. With safari, edge, and chrome, you can use a janky extension to redirect it - at least on desktop. Edge tends to be the most hostile here - when updated, it automatically switches your search engine to bing search and disables the extension. It is nice enough to tell you that they switched your search engine but no button to switch it back. These practices are obviously monopolistic - using their dominance in one area to limit consumer choice in another. And it is significant because these tools are how we know about the world and communicate. A cambrian explosion of unshitified apps that put the consumer first is due if we can ever get some blanket effective legislation against gatekeeping. This could have huge secondary effects. A less manipulated population is probably a more civil, more effective one. It's something to be hopeful of. If only we could only get it right.
- DavideNL 2y ago
  > “With safari, edge, and chrome, you can use a janky extension to redirect it - at least on desktop.” In iOS Safari too… it’s janky indeed. Everyone and their grandmother won’t use it… https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/kagi-for-safari/id1622835804?l=en-GB https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/kagi-for-safari/id1622835804?l... There’s also the “xSearch” app, for other / custom search engines: https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/xsearch-for-safari/id1579902068 https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206...
- Semaphor 2y ago
  I thought you meant mobile browsers, but then you talked about desktop, and I got confused. Then I checked Chrome (which I don’t normally use), and there was no option to enter a custom SE. I would have bet money you could enter one there. Was this a recent (~last 5 or so years) change?
  - rafram 2y ago
    It’s still possible, just hard to find: https://superuser.com/a/1828601 https://superuser.com/a/1828601
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41325184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41325184
extraduder_ire 2y ago
I was surprised to see Blackberry's Access browser in the lists for three countries. I wonder if that's because it's especially popular due to business users there, or if the number of other popular browsers is lower.
bouke 2y ago
I'm worried about Chrome's web dominance: they are already dominating the desktop web. With these changes I can only imagine that they will do the same for the mobile web with these changes. Apple's mobile market share in EU is way lower than Android's; web developers will start caring even less about (mobile) Safari.

48 points by colinprince 2y ago

https://developer.apple.com/support/browser-choice-screen/#austria https://developer.apple.com/support/browser-choice-screen/#a... why is firefox ranked so low in popularity to other essentially wrappers of safari? marketing perhaps?

Do123 2y ago
They are listed alphabetically.
- 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
  apologies
  - s_dev 2y ago
    They aren't in alphabetical order. Simply looking at the list will confirm that.
    - philippgitpush 2y ago
      Do123 was not referring to the screenshots, but to the lists below, which are in alphabetical order, while the screenshots aren't.
- rlv-dan 2y ago
  I remember hearing that the band "A" took their name so that they would be put first the record shops.
  - markovs_gun 2y ago
    Amazon and Apple both picked their names to show up early on in lists, and anyone who remembers the phone book days remembers all sorts of plumbers with names like "AAA plumbing"
    - Symbiote 2y ago
      The British company Acorn Computers picked their name to appear even earlier in the alphabet. Acer of Taiwan beat that, is there any company earlier than Acer? (Acorn was the original "A" in ARM, the Acorn Risc Machine.)
      - NikkiA 2y ago
        There have been thousands of 'Aardvark Computers' around the world, but afaik they have all been support/service companies rather than manufacturers.
- kwanbix 2y ago
  Ecosia, Brave, Edge, You.com, Chrome, Firefox, DuckDuckGo, Qwant. They are not list alphabetically, but randomly.
- Etheryte 2y ago
  It would be pretty funny if Apple switched this to sorted alphabetically by provider name and then Apple's Safari would be on top.
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    "funny"
elashri 2y ago
> on a user’s device browsers will be shown in a randomized order per user
philippgitpush 2y ago
Your wording gives the impression that you are implying that Firefox is different. clarifying for anyone who doesn't know: Firefox on iOS is just another Safari wrapper, just like the others.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  I think the simplest explanation is that people like to stick to what they use on desktop. Firefox has a 6% market share there so it makes sense it would also be lower on mobile.
- malermeister 2y ago
  For now. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1882872 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1882872

roenxi 2y ago

This design looks mildly anti-user, they're being asked to make a choice they probably know nothing about with no hints about which is the best option to pick. I assume this is legislatively required, so Apple really should be allowed to say "we recommend Safari" or to put it first in the list. A lot of people are using iOS specifically for the social contract that Apple will make this sort of decision for them.

sneak 2y ago
The point of the DMA, for better or worse, is that it is no longer allowed to outsource this decision to your OS vendor. Perhaps if you think this is anti-user, then it may be logically congruent to conclude that the DMA is mildly anti-user. I would agree, generally speaking. That said, what is most convenient and easy for most users is ultimately bad for society and markets. The lack of sideloading specifically on iOS is a big danger, but day to day protects many users from malware.
- kwanbix 2y ago
  How is the DMA mildly anti-user?
  - sneak 2y ago
    It removes the ability of a user to choose a vendor that will 100% abstract away the responsibility of keeping a phone secure and free of malware. It requires that the user educate themselves a fair amount to input answers to decisions about browsers such as the one discussed here, versus allowing their OS vendor to just do whatever they think is best. Many users don’t want more options, they just want an opinionated and reasoned one-size-fits-all experience. Such a desire is incompatible with a fair and open market for browser software or app stores, for example. Allowing a user to choose any app store means the user can no longer choose not to ever be able to choose an app store, for example. This increases the chance for malware or deceptive software to end up on the user’s device. The only way I can think of squaring this circle is for Apple to sell two different SKUs of every iPhone: one that can sideload (and allow apps such as alternate app store apps to install other apps), and one that cannot. Then users can choose their overall security model once at time of purchase. Absent that, the DMA is choosing the “you must have more choices” choice for users, whether users prefer that or not. Many users choose iOS because the security choices are already made for them and can’t get fucked up by their own configuring.

psyonity 2y ago

While I think this change is great, I am not directly convinced Safari should be included in the list by their own rules, considering the app has not been explicitly downloaded by at least 5,000 users in the prior calendar year.

carlosjobim 2y ago
I knew that hackers still would not be satisfied. Thanks for spending some time to invent a reason to continue raging against Apple, so that the rest can go back to work.
threeseed 2y ago
Far more than 5,000 users have downloaded the Safari Technology Preview.
- joekrill 2y ago
  > If a developer has multiple browser apps, only the most downloaded app will be eligible Then that would imply that only the Safari Technology Preview should be eligible.
brookst 2y ago
That seems like a strange claim. Any source for it? Safari can be deleted on iOS and I find it hard to believe that less than 5000 people do that and then re-download it a year.
- Diti 2y ago
  I live in the EU and I can’t delete Safari on iOS. I, too, am curious about that claim.
- TheCleric 2y ago
  I think they mean as an App Store download (since it comes with the phone, so therefore has 0 app downloads).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ojosilva 2y ago

Off-topic: why does the Firefox icon has that unappealing black background? I don't understand why lately on iOS, MacOS, Android etc the app icon has that black (dark blue?) background. The Firefox website does not use a dark background icon anywhere, there's not one available in the design kit, although it does mention the preference for either light or dark backgrounds due to the color gradients being potentially confusing with mid-tones and color mixes. I still don't see the need to distribute such a broken-looking one - it makes it look like they messed up the transparency setting on a png somewhere. Compare it to Chrome's (in the OP) which looks fresh, lively and friendly.

mlindner 2y ago
It's a dark purple, and it happened when Apple changed the design language such that all applications need to look like rounded squares. I dearly miss skeuomorphism. Making everything look identical is just horrible for ergonomics.
- episteme 2y ago
  This doesn't explain why they made it a dark purple, the other apps have white backgrounds.
- b3orn 2y ago
  > all applications need to look like rounded squares. Looking at the screenshots there are several browsers (Chrome, Edge, Brave and even Safari) for which the icon neither has a background nor rounded corners.
  - medstrom 2y ago
    They do have backgrounds. White backgrounds. You don't see it there but it'd be obvious on your homescreen.
  - pjerem 2y ago
    If you look closer, they all have rounded corners, they just have white backgrounds.

throwaway13337 2y ago

Relatedly, on most browsers, you cannot choose the search engine you use. They give you a small list. This is an issue for e.g. Kagi or other non-standard search engine. With safari, edge, and chrome, you can use a janky extension to redirect it - at least on desktop. Edge tends to be the most hostile here - when updated, it automatically switches your search engine to bing search and disables the extension. It is nice enough to tell you that they switched your search engine but no button to switch it back. These practices are obviously monopolistic - using their dominance in one area to limit consumer choice in another. And it is significant because these tools are how we know about the world and communicate. A cambrian explosion of unshitified apps that put the consumer first is due if we can ever get some blanket effective legislation against gatekeeping. This could have huge secondary effects. A less manipulated population is probably a more civil, more effective one. It's something to be hopeful of. If only we could only get it right.

DavideNL 2y ago
> “With safari, edge, and chrome, you can use a janky extension to redirect it - at least on desktop.” In iOS Safari too… it’s janky indeed. Everyone and their grandmother won’t use it… https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/kagi-for-safari/id1622835804?l=en-GB https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/kagi-for-safari/id1622835804?l... There’s also the “xSearch” app, for other / custom search engines: https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/xsearch-for-safari/id1579902068 https://apps.apple.com/nl/app/xsearch-for-safari/id157990206...
Semaphor 2y ago
I thought you meant mobile browsers, but then you talked about desktop, and I got confused. Then I checked Chrome (which I don’t normally use), and there was no option to enter a custom SE. I would have bet money you could enter one there. Was this a recent (~last 5 or so years) change?
- rafram 2y ago
  It’s still possible, just hard to find: https://superuser.com/a/1828601 https://superuser.com/a/1828601

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41325184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41325184

extraduder_ire 2y ago

I was surprised to see Blackberry's Access browser in the lists for three countries. I wonder if that's because it's especially popular due to business users there, or if the number of other popular browsers is lower.

bouke 2y ago

I'm worried about Chrome's web dominance: they are already dominating the desktop web. With these changes I can only imagine that they will do the same for the mobile web with these changes. Apple's mobile market share in EU is way lower than Android's; web developers will start caring even less about (mobile) Safari.