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The "women can have career progression or kids but rarely both" problem is not just a problem in Japan. It is probably unavoidable if all real work is done in o

The "women can have career progression or kids but rarely both" problem is not just a problem in Japan. It is probably unavoidable if all real work is done in offices or factories. Things are getting better with work from home; and it may be that progressively more advanced virtual office technologies are what can actually help us turn the corner here.

bobthepanda 2y ago
In the case of Japan there is active, heavy discrimination against women, particularly pregnant women. The very first ruling that firing a woman for pregnancy was discriminatory only happened in 2017. https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20170203/p2a/00m/0na/011000c https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20170203/p2a/00m/0na/01... 20% of women have reported maternity harassment in Japan. https://mataharanet.org/en/what-is-matahara/ https://mataharanet.org/en/what-is-matahara/
- solidsnack9000 2y ago
  In countries where this does not happen, the TFR has nevertheless fallen. I believe this is a case where people are overindexing on something specific to Japan in order to explain an effect that is far more general.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    The effect is far more severe in Japan. Japan ranks at 192 out of 204 according to the UN. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate?wprov=sfti1#Country_ranking_by_international_organizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...
    - solidsnack9000 2y ago
      While the absolute difference in rank of course occurs in steps of 1, the difference in TFR between the ranks is much smaller. Replacement is a TFR of about 2.1 and few modernized countries reach that. France has a relatively high value for a modernized country -- its TFR for 2022 is listed as 1.79 (rank 124) at the source you cite. Japan's TFR in 2022 is listed as 1.26 (rank 199), while we have 1.46 for Germany (rank 172), 1.41 for Norway, 1.33 for Canada and 1.32 for Finland. If progressive policy in the area of women's employment were a significant factor in TFR, the relatively large difference between France and Finland or Canada (both quite progressive countries) and the relatively small difference between Japan and Finland are both hard to explain. If we look at the 2024 figures, which seem to be what you pulled for the ranking (Japan's ranking is higher in 2024 than in 2022, interestingly), then we have 1.8 for France, 1.6 for the UK, 1.5 for Germany, 1.5 for Canada, 1.5 for Norway, 1.4 for Finland and 1.3 for Japan. These seem to be provisional figures, though -- 2024 is not over -- I'm not sure we should take them as the basis for our discussion.

bobthepanda 2y ago

In the case of Japan there is active, heavy discrimination against women, particularly pregnant women. The very first ruling that firing a woman for pregnancy was discriminatory only happened in 2017. https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20170203/p2a/00m/0na/011000c https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20170203/p2a/00m/0na/01... 20% of women have reported maternity harassment in Japan. https://mataharanet.org/en/what-is-matahara/ https://mataharanet.org/en/what-is-matahara/

solidsnack9000 2y ago
In countries where this does not happen, the TFR has nevertheless fallen. I believe this is a case where people are overindexing on something specific to Japan in order to explain an effect that is far more general.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  The effect is far more severe in Japan. Japan ranks at 192 out of 204 according to the UN. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate?wprov=sfti1#Country_ranking_by_international_organizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...
  - solidsnack9000 2y ago
    While the absolute difference in rank of course occurs in steps of 1, the difference in TFR between the ranks is much smaller. Replacement is a TFR of about 2.1 and few modernized countries reach that. France has a relatively high value for a modernized country -- its TFR for 2022 is listed as 1.79 (rank 124) at the source you cite. Japan's TFR in 2022 is listed as 1.26 (rank 199), while we have 1.46 for Germany (rank 172), 1.41 for Norway, 1.33 for Canada and 1.32 for Finland. If progressive policy in the area of women's employment were a significant factor in TFR, the relatively large difference between France and Finland or Canada (both quite progressive countries) and the relatively small difference between Japan and Finland are both hard to explain. If we look at the 2024 figures, which seem to be what you pulled for the ranking (Japan's ranking is higher in 2024 than in 2022, interestingly), then we have 1.8 for France, 1.6 for the UK, 1.5 for Germany, 1.5 for Canada, 1.5 for Norway, 1.4 for Finland and 1.3 for Japan. These seem to be provisional figures, though -- 2024 is not over -- I'm not sure we should take them as the basis for our discussion.