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OK, here's a controversial statement: Maybe Japanese culture is in need of some change. And I don't even mean, what you think I am referring to. I mean, maybe t

OK, here's a controversial statement: Maybe Japanese culture is in need of some change. And I don't even mean, what you think I am referring to. I mean, maybe the Japanese don't have the right entrepreneurial attitude to develop modern 21st century businesses and maybe foreigners can bring some fresh perspectives. I believe that is one of the factors that makes the US so successful.

rayiner 2y ago
Maybe Japanese culture needs changing, but it doesn’t follow that immigration would produce the right kind of chance. You can replace order with disorder, but why would that be a positive change? The US is successful, but in terms of GDP per capita countries like Denmark and Sweden have kept pace with the U.S. since the 1980s: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/denmark/usa?sc=XE34 https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/denmark/usa?sc=...; https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/sweden/usa?sc=XE34 https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/sweden/usa?sc=X.... Having a market economy seems much more important than immigration.
- tptacek 2y ago
  I don't follow your logic. The parent comment suggested immigration would inject entrepreneurialism into an otherwise staid society. That doesn't imply disorder, it implies entrepreneurialism.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    Order arises from (1) everyone following the same rules; and (2) everyone being subject to a shared system of informal social reinforcement. Immigration injects a foreign population that was socialized according to different rules, and isn’t part of the system of shared social reinforcement, and so creates disorder. There is no orderly society that has a significant share of immigrants.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      You mean besides ours, the most successful society on the planet, proprietors of a global hegemony something rapidly approaching an entire century. And I'm sure others, I'm just saying this one is a pretty obvious counterexample.
      - Izkata 2y ago
        We've only recently started mass immigration and it's not going as well as previous decades when immigration was more controlled. Giving small amounts of immigrants time to assimilate instead of bringing in so many at once they start building their own enclaves is what works.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        The U.S. isn’t an orderly country, especially the immigrant-heavy parts. Importing U.S. levels of disorder to Japan would be a huge downgrade in standard of living.
        tptacek 2y ago
        The "immigrant-heaviest" states are the most successful in the union, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
        rayiner 2y ago
        Cheap immigrant labor and skimming the cream off the top from other countries makes American companies more competitive, yes. That doesn’t make a place orderly and well-run, with a high quality of life for the average person. New York’s GDP per capita is double that of Japan and significantly higher than the Tokyo region. I doubt most Japanese would be happy living in New York. Indeed, if Americans could even conceive that a city could be like Tokyo—clean, orderly, polite, with effective transit and public services—most wouldn’t want to live in New York either.
        tptacek 2y ago

rayiner 2y ago

Maybe Japanese culture needs changing, but it doesn’t follow that immigration would produce the right kind of chance. You can replace order with disorder, but why would that be a positive change? The US is successful, but in terms of GDP per capita countries like Denmark and Sweden have kept pace with the U.S. since the 1980s: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/denmark/usa?sc=XE34 https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/denmark/usa?sc=...; https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/sweden/usa?sc=XE34 https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/sweden/usa?sc=X.... Having a market economy seems much more important than immigration.

tptacek 2y ago
I don't follow your logic. The parent comment suggested immigration would inject entrepreneurialism into an otherwise staid society. That doesn't imply disorder, it implies entrepreneurialism.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Order arises from (1) everyone following the same rules; and (2) everyone being subject to a shared system of informal social reinforcement. Immigration injects a foreign population that was socialized according to different rules, and isn’t part of the system of shared social reinforcement, and so creates disorder. There is no orderly society that has a significant share of immigrants.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    You mean besides ours, the most successful society on the planet, proprietors of a global hegemony something rapidly approaching an entire century. And I'm sure others, I'm just saying this one is a pretty obvious counterexample.
    - Izkata 2y ago
      We've only recently started mass immigration and it's not going as well as previous decades when immigration was more controlled. Giving small amounts of immigrants time to assimilate instead of bringing in so many at once they start building their own enclaves is what works.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      The U.S. isn’t an orderly country, especially the immigrant-heavy parts. Importing U.S. levels of disorder to Japan would be a huge downgrade in standard of living.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        The "immigrant-heaviest" states are the most successful in the union, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
        rayiner 2y ago
        Cheap immigrant labor and skimming the cream off the top from other countries makes American companies more competitive, yes. That doesn’t make a place orderly and well-run, with a high quality of life for the average person. New York’s GDP per capita is double that of Japan and significantly higher than the Tokyo region. I doubt most Japanese would be happy living in New York. Indeed, if Americans could even conceive that a city could be like Tokyo—clean, orderly, polite, with effective transit and public services—most wouldn’t want to live in New York either.
        tptacek 2y ago