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> Isn't capitalism great? Does "capitalism" now just mean that businesses can do whatever they want? Consumer rights are awful in the United States, but that

> Isn't capitalism great? Does "capitalism" now just mean that businesses can do whatever they want? Consumer rights are awful in the United States, but that isn't because our economy is capitalistic. It's because our government is inept.

manuelmoreale 2y ago
I think by “capitalism” they mean this pervasive attitude of trying to extract money to customer in every way possible.
- tgv 2y ago
  As long as the government allows it, greed will make corporations try to grab more and more, especially since the finance/MBA types have taken over. It's not strange to call that capitalism, since it is in its very nature.
  - manuelmoreale 2y ago
    I don’t disagree with that and I’m no fan of the current situation.
- CivBase 2y ago
  But that's litterally not what capitalsim is. Calling that "capitalism" is no better than calling all regulations "communism". It just serves to poison conversations on the subject.
  - manuelmoreale 2y ago
    I’m not saying it’s a good definition. It’s just how I see people using the term. I personally don’t think there’s a good discussion to be had around the subject of this post btw. There’s literally no good reason for that fee. None.
RIMR 2y ago
>Consumer rights are awful in the United States, but that isn't because our economy is capitalistic. It's because our government is inept. Well, look at the precise manner in which our government is inept. Capitalism is basically a religious ideology here. Any time anyone suggests anything pro-worker or pro-consumer, there are no shortage of people who will call it "communism", and demand completely unregulated corporate power as the solution, claiming that to be the path to free market capitalism. We have decided that making money = success, and do absolutely nothing when companies charge $95 just to allow you the opportunity to subscribe to a paid service, as a punishment for buying your equipment used. So yes, Capitalism as an economic practice can exist in tandem with strong worker and consumer rights and protections, but Capitalism as an ethos is the reason why we are lacking so many worker and consumer rights and protections.
- KilgoreBass 2y ago
  Yeah it's wild have free market capitalists want small government and don't want regulations and then when a private company does something people they still manage to blame the government. There's a weird juxtaposition where a lot of libertarians are really into right to repair. And look I'm all for right to repair but I am not a libertarian. Frankly, I'm not convinced capitalism is the best method to organize society at all. But it's fascinating now when private companies do terrible things, they still manage to blame the government even though they are against a large government regulations. Definitely a strange dynamic rossmann community. Because
drdaeman 2y ago
I think the root issue is lack of consumer awareness and informedness. In an ideal spherical free market in a vacuum, nobody would buy even slightly enshittified things, because a rational educated consumer understands how it erodes the whole market and thus harms them personally. In reality, of course, consumers frequently barely know anything about what they’re buying, and en masse will happily trade away any rights for a meager discount (or nothing at all), without even really knowing it. The worst part is that there is no effort to fix this - only some crutches and legal duct tape to protect consumers from most blatant abuse. I suspect that with information gaps and lack of full transparency, no matter if it’s some perfect free market capitalism, textbook utopian communism, or anything realistic in between - things are still going to be broken (just with different flavors). In other words, capitalism is a distraction, and lack of even just a strive to have true well-informed competition (which is fundamental to any socioeconomic model, not just capitalism) is the reason we can’t have nice things.
KilgoreBass 2y ago
I thought capitalists don't want big government. Now you're saying it's the government's fault for not regulating the business more sufficiently? So which is it? You want larger government regulating stuff like this or not?

manuelmoreale 2y ago

I think by “capitalism” they mean this pervasive attitude of trying to extract money to customer in every way possible.

tgv 2y ago
As long as the government allows it, greed will make corporations try to grab more and more, especially since the finance/MBA types have taken over. It's not strange to call that capitalism, since it is in its very nature.
- manuelmoreale 2y ago
  I don’t disagree with that and I’m no fan of the current situation.
CivBase 2y ago
But that's litterally not what capitalsim is. Calling that "capitalism" is no better than calling all regulations "communism". It just serves to poison conversations on the subject.
- manuelmoreale 2y ago
  I’m not saying it’s a good definition. It’s just how I see people using the term. I personally don’t think there’s a good discussion to be had around the subject of this post btw. There’s literally no good reason for that fee. None.

RIMR 2y ago

>Consumer rights are awful in the United States, but that isn't because our economy is capitalistic. It's because our government is inept. Well, look at the precise manner in which our government is inept. Capitalism is basically a religious ideology here. Any time anyone suggests anything pro-worker or pro-consumer, there are no shortage of people who will call it "communism", and demand completely unregulated corporate power as the solution, claiming that to be the path to free market capitalism. We have decided that making money = success, and do absolutely nothing when companies charge $95 just to allow you the opportunity to subscribe to a paid service, as a punishment for buying your equipment used. So yes, Capitalism as an economic practice can exist in tandem with strong worker and consumer rights and protections, but Capitalism as an ethos is the reason why we are lacking so many worker and consumer rights and protections.

KilgoreBass 2y ago
Yeah it's wild have free market capitalists want small government and don't want regulations and then when a private company does something people they still manage to blame the government. There's a weird juxtaposition where a lot of libertarians are really into right to repair. And look I'm all for right to repair but I am not a libertarian. Frankly, I'm not convinced capitalism is the best method to organize society at all. But it's fascinating now when private companies do terrible things, they still manage to blame the government even though they are against a large government regulations. Definitely a strange dynamic rossmann community. Because

drdaeman 2y ago

I think the root issue is lack of consumer awareness and informedness. In an ideal spherical free market in a vacuum, nobody would buy even slightly enshittified things, because a rational educated consumer understands how it erodes the whole market and thus harms them personally. In reality, of course, consumers frequently barely know anything about what they’re buying, and en masse will happily trade away any rights for a meager discount (or nothing at all), without even really knowing it. The worst part is that there is no effort to fix this - only some crutches and legal duct tape to protect consumers from most blatant abuse. I suspect that with information gaps and lack of full transparency, no matter if it’s some perfect free market capitalism, textbook utopian communism, or anything realistic in between - things are still going to be broken (just with different flavors). In other words, capitalism is a distraction, and lack of even just a strive to have true well-informed competition (which is fundamental to any socioeconomic model, not just capitalism) is the reason we can’t have nice things.

KilgoreBass 2y ago

I thought capitalists don't want big government. Now you're saying it's the government's fault for not regulating the business more sufficiently? So which is it? You want larger government regulating stuff like this or not?