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As someone who has lived in the southwest, it can't be understated how important the issue of water is. One thing to keep in mind is that most estimates place

As someone who has lived in the southwest, it can't be understated how important the issue of water is. One thing to keep in mind is that most estimates place human consumption of water at below 20% - a ton of the water of the basin goes to agriculture. To be clear, I think this makes sense - with added water regions in the basin can be some of the most productive ag regions in the country. The big problem is policy has not adapted to scarcity. There are real tradeoffs when we have 30% less water than forecast and it's not clear who should suffer them. I think there is often a misconception that this area is somehow "too hot" to live in. Since the advent of air conditioning, we have moved past this. Generally speaking similarly sized homes in Boston will consume more energy for HVAC than Phoenix will simply because heating homes in cold winters is often more energy intensive than cooling in the summer. Water usage in the colorado basin: https://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/article/meat-of-the-matter-colorado-river-over-consumed/ https://landsat.gsfc.nasa.gov/article/meat-of-the-matter-col...

gamepsys 2y ago
Seems pretty clear to me that agriculture should wax and wane it's consumption and humans should have access to a consistent generous ration.
- nicholasjarnold 2y ago
  Yes, and we should be investing heavily into technologies and techniques that maximize the efficiency of the water that is consumed by agriculture. The government should probably subsidize the expense of the conversion. We should also get rid of any "use it or lose next year's ration" rules that are in place which cause some farmers to literally just run water out of their pipes to ensure they're recorded as having "used their allocation" and therefore "still require that much next year".
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    Using a normal common law water rights system is literally prohibited by some state constitutions (e.g. AZ article 17). It would take a movement on the order of civil rights to fix water rights.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Humans should have access to a consistent generous ration for hygiene, drinking water, and moderate home gardening. I think it's reasonable to cut people off (during a major drought with rationing) when they start focusing on trying to maintain large lawns, golf courses, swimming pools, etc.
  - gamepsys 2y ago
    Generous ration. Yeah there should be limits, depending on the environment.
tony_cannistra 2y ago
> Generally speaking similarly sized homes in Boston will consume more energy for HVAC than Phoenix will simply because heating homes in cold winters is often more energy intensive than cooling in the summer. This is true, and I definitely agree that the majority of the work to match consumption with water availability lies in the hands of agriculture. With that said, it's important to recognize that the CO basin states (AZ, WY, UT) have some of the highest per-capita domestic water use figures in the nation - far above the national average. https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2017/1131/ofr20171131.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2017/1131/ofr20171131.pdf
- onlypassingthru 2y ago
  Not sure about the other two, but it might be the ubiquitous swimming pools in AZ. The evaporation in an AZ pool during the summer is dramatic. You need to have a pool water leveler on 24/7 or leave the garden hose trickling constantly.
  - tracker1 2y ago
    While somewhat common, I wouldn't use the term ubiquitous... When I grew up in Casa Grande, I didn't know anyone who had a pool, and most of my friends and I would ride our bicycles several miles to the public pool. My grandmother's neighborhood in Phoenix had two houses in a couple blocks that had pools. The street I live on today has two houses (of a couple dozen) that have pools. There are more wealthy neighborhoods where it's closer to 1 in 4, but again wouldn't call that ubiquitous at all. That said, I think that some of the farming use is excessive and should lean into regenerative agriculture over the more wasteful use of chemical fertilizers and desertification over time only taking away and eroding soil.
    - onlypassingthru 2y ago
      No offense, but Casa Grande was, until recently, a modest farm town with modest incomes. Ag labor just doesn't pay that well and pools are expensive. In contrast, here's a random middle class neighborhood in central Phoenix[0], the fifth most populous city in the US of A. You'll notice some of the streets have a pool in every single backyard. When you zoom in on the higher income neighborhoods, like in Scottsdale and PV, it's rare to see a backyard that doesn't have a pool. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoenix,+AZ/@33.5352177,-112.0785504,701m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x872b12ed50a179cb:0x8c69c7f8354a1bac!8m2!3d33.4483771!4d-112.0740373!16zL20vMGQzNXk?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDgyMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoenix,+AZ/@33.5352177,-1...
rurp 2y ago
Conservation has to start with agriculture since that's the vast majority of usage. The simplest and most effective step would be to stop subsidizing that water usage so heavily. Last I looked the average farmer paid about 1/10 the price per gallon as residents, but it varies a lot and some pay less than 1/100. That leads to exactly the behavior you would expect: completely unsustainable high water usage crops being grown in large amounts.
- estebank 2y ago
  If you don't mind the presentation style, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XusyNT_k-1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XusyNT_k-1c is great presents an even direr situation: because water rights are "use it or lose it", we are actively encouraging water misuse, beyond just "it's cheap enough to misuse it".

gamepsys 2y ago

Seems pretty clear to me that agriculture should wax and wane it's consumption and humans should have access to a consistent generous ration.

nicholasjarnold 2y ago
Yes, and we should be investing heavily into technologies and techniques that maximize the efficiency of the water that is consumed by agriculture. The government should probably subsidize the expense of the conversion. We should also get rid of any "use it or lose next year's ration" rules that are in place which cause some farmers to literally just run water out of their pipes to ensure they're recorded as having "used their allocation" and therefore "still require that much next year".
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  Using a normal common law water rights system is literally prohibited by some state constitutions (e.g. AZ article 17). It would take a movement on the order of civil rights to fix water rights.
BobaFloutist 2y ago
Humans should have access to a consistent generous ration for hygiene, drinking water, and moderate home gardening. I think it's reasonable to cut people off (during a major drought with rationing) when they start focusing on trying to maintain large lawns, golf courses, swimming pools, etc.
- gamepsys 2y ago
  Generous ration. Yeah there should be limits, depending on the environment.

tony_cannistra 2y ago

> Generally speaking similarly sized homes in Boston will consume more energy for HVAC than Phoenix will simply because heating homes in cold winters is often more energy intensive than cooling in the summer. This is true, and I definitely agree that the majority of the work to match consumption with water availability lies in the hands of agriculture. With that said, it's important to recognize that the CO basin states (AZ, WY, UT) have some of the highest per-capita domestic water use figures in the nation - far above the national average. https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2017/1131/ofr20171131.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2017/1131/ofr20171131.pdf

onlypassingthru 2y ago
Not sure about the other two, but it might be the ubiquitous swimming pools in AZ. The evaporation in an AZ pool during the summer is dramatic. You need to have a pool water leveler on 24/7 or leave the garden hose trickling constantly.
- tracker1 2y ago
  While somewhat common, I wouldn't use the term ubiquitous... When I grew up in Casa Grande, I didn't know anyone who had a pool, and most of my friends and I would ride our bicycles several miles to the public pool. My grandmother's neighborhood in Phoenix had two houses in a couple blocks that had pools. The street I live on today has two houses (of a couple dozen) that have pools. There are more wealthy neighborhoods where it's closer to 1 in 4, but again wouldn't call that ubiquitous at all. That said, I think that some of the farming use is excessive and should lean into regenerative agriculture over the more wasteful use of chemical fertilizers and desertification over time only taking away and eroding soil.
  - onlypassingthru 2y ago
    No offense, but Casa Grande was, until recently, a modest farm town with modest incomes. Ag labor just doesn't pay that well and pools are expensive. In contrast, here's a random middle class neighborhood in central Phoenix[0], the fifth most populous city in the US of A. You'll notice some of the streets have a pool in every single backyard. When you zoom in on the higher income neighborhoods, like in Scottsdale and PV, it's rare to see a backyard that doesn't have a pool. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoenix,+AZ/@33.5352177,-112.0785504,701m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x872b12ed50a179cb:0x8c69c7f8354a1bac!8m2!3d33.4483771!4d-112.0740373!16zL20vMGQzNXk?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDgyMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/place/Phoenix,+AZ/@33.5352177,-1...

rurp 2y ago

Conservation has to start with agriculture since that's the vast majority of usage. The simplest and most effective step would be to stop subsidizing that water usage so heavily. Last I looked the average farmer paid about 1/10 the price per gallon as residents, but it varies a lot and some pay less than 1/100. That leads to exactly the behavior you would expect: completely unsustainable high water usage crops being grown in large amounts.

estebank 2y ago
If you don't mind the presentation style, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XusyNT_k-1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XusyNT_k-1c is great presents an even direr situation: because water rights are "use it or lose it", we are actively encouraging water misuse, beyond just "it's cheap enough to misuse it".