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Clojure people are probably THE community with a philosophy diametrically opposed to AI generated code. Rich Hickey once called TDD "guardrail programming", be

by j-pb 2y ago

Clojure people are probably THE community with a philosophy diametrically opposed to AI generated code. Rich Hickey once called TDD "guardrail programming", because it's like navigating to a location by first making contact with the guardrail and then just letting go of the steering wheel. What they value is "hammock time", which is similar to what used to be called "Turinging" by the people working with Alan Turing, you just stare at the problem for hours and weeks and months, until a solution seems to magically manifest itself as obvious. Or in Richs' case, you just lay in a hammock with your books and a laptop, and think about your problem domain until the solution becomes easy. Clojure itself is a tool that is meant to be refine- and hone-able by a skilled user, but can create a mess in the hands of a junior/AI. Case in point, I've been working on the same 20k lines of code for the last 5 Years, and I don't mind it because I feel like I'm gaining another meaningful insight into my problem domain every few weeks. I'm not even working in Clojure anymore but the mindset is something that stuck to me.

roenxi 2y ago
By a similar argument, the Clojure people could be said to be diametrically opposed to human-generated code. Which is also true-ish, but not that meaningful an observation. At some point code needs to be written by someone or something.
- riwsky 2y ago
  It’s a lisp, so arguably you can abstract away “actually writing the code” too, behind macros
- nanomonkey 2y ago
  > At some point code needs to be written by someone or something. I believe there is a macro for that.
- j-pb 2y ago
  But code as the formalisation of the problem is not seperatable from the understanding of its domain. The whole point of explorative REPL based programming is that it allows you to further your understanding of the problem. And the value is in the understanding, and not the code. I feel like this is best captured by a story that my father (an artist/designer) once told me. The Shogun and the Artist Once, a young shogun visited Mount Fuji and was so captivated by its beauty that he commissioned a renowned local artist to create an ink wash painting of the mountain. The shogun instructed the artist to complete the painting by the time he returned from his travels. Years passed, and the shogun finally returned, eager to see the painting. However, the artist apologized, explaining that he had not yet finished. The shogun, though disappointed, granted the artist more time. More years went by, and the shogun returned again, only to find the painting still unfinished. Yet again, the shogun, moved by the mountain's beauty, granted another extension. This pattern repeated for many years, until both the shogun and the artist had grown old. Finally, the shogun, tired of waiting, demanded the artist finish the painting. “We are both old and frail,” the shogun said. “I may not live to see the day you finish. I want to visit Mount Fuji through your painting, even if I can no longer travel. Finish it now—I demand it.” “Very well,” the artist replied. He took up his brush and, in just a few strokes, perfectly captured the essence of Mount Fuji. The shogun was astonished. “This captures the essence perfectly,” he said. “But if it took only moments, why did you make me wait a lifetime? Do you think so little of me?” The artist smiled and replied, “On the contrary, my lord. I have painted Mount Fuji every day since you first made your request. But it took a lifetime of learning, experimentation, and experience to capture its essence like this.” Understanding at last, the shogun rewarded the artist for his lifetime of dedication.

by j-pb 2y ago

roenxi 2y ago

By a similar argument, the Clojure people could be said to be diametrically opposed to human-generated code. Which is also true-ish, but not that meaningful an observation. At some point code needs to be written by someone or something.

riwsky 2y ago
It’s a lisp, so arguably you can abstract away “actually writing the code” too, behind macros
nanomonkey 2y ago
> At some point code needs to be written by someone or something. I believe there is a macro for that.
j-pb 2y ago
But code as the formalisation of the problem is not seperatable from the understanding of its domain. The whole point of explorative REPL based programming is that it allows you to further your understanding of the problem. And the value is in the understanding, and not the code. I feel like this is best captured by a story that my father (an artist/designer) once told me. The Shogun and the Artist Once, a young shogun visited Mount Fuji and was so captivated by its beauty that he commissioned a renowned local artist to create an ink wash painting of the mountain. The shogun instructed the artist to complete the painting by the time he returned from his travels. Years passed, and the shogun finally returned, eager to see the painting. However, the artist apologized, explaining that he had not yet finished. The shogun, though disappointed, granted the artist more time. More years went by, and the shogun returned again, only to find the painting still unfinished. Yet again, the shogun, moved by the mountain's beauty, granted another extension. This pattern repeated for many years, until both the shogun and the artist had grown old. Finally, the shogun, tired of waiting, demanded the artist finish the painting. “We are both old and frail,” the shogun said. “I may not live to see the day you finish. I want to visit Mount Fuji through your painting, even if I can no longer travel. Finish it now—I demand it.” “Very well,” the artist replied. He took up his brush and, in just a few strokes, perfectly captured the essence of Mount Fuji. The shogun was astonished. “This captures the essence perfectly,” he said. “But if it took only moments, why did you make me wait a lifetime? Do you think so little of me?” The artist smiled and replied, “On the contrary, my lord. I have painted Mount Fuji every day since you first made your request. But it took a lifetime of learning, experimentation, and experience to capture its essence like this.” Understanding at last, the shogun rewarded the artist for his lifetime of dedication.