3 ms·

We have a culture of "nothing is safe, always hire a professional", and a culture of companies working against the right to repair. Most simple electronics rep

by caseyy 2y ago

We have a culture of "nothing is safe, always hire a professional", and a culture of companies working against the right to repair. Most simple electronics repairs and household repairs remain very doable for everyone, and would save them a lot of money.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
It's particularly strange considering YouTube now has a wealth of videos showing practically all aspects of how to do something. In my down time I've been helping out a bunch of home improvement projects being done by several other people just to help out This type of thing is a major major source of post educational adult male socialization, and I think it's something that adult males need in a serious way. I agree that the culture that surrounds it is kind of dying off. But it also might be a sign of the fact that housing is simply out of reach of an entire generation or perhaps even two generations now. Only old people have houses anymore might actually be true in a very very general sense. And young people with lots of energy and healthy backs have the time and motivation to DIY, if only they had their own houses.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Many cities don't allow diy. I know how but I'm not allowed.
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    what city do you live in? How are you "not allowed"?
    - bluGill 2y ago
      I am not allowed to get a permit. I can cheat if it isn't visible from outside but if caught I'll be forced to pay someone to undo everything
      - AlbertCory 2y ago
        "if caught" : how would that happen? You go to sell the house and the buyer demands to see all your permits? The city inspector barges into your house uninvited? Unless you're in a total buyer's market, you just sell to someone who isn't so nitpicky. Or you get a pro to inspect your work and attest that it's up to code (it would be, wouldn't it?)
    - qwerpy 2y ago
      Not OP but I live in Washington state. I recently added an outlet to my closet for a vacuum cleaner charger. I watched some instructional videos and did some reading and felt I could do it safely. Technically I’m “allowed” to do this but I needed to have gotten a permit and then gotten my work inspected, at significant time and money cost to myself. Did it anyway for the cost of the $10 outlet and an hour of time. If my house burns down because of my work and my insurance finds out they could deny me the claim. I’d be out of a lot of money.
      - AlbertCory 2y ago
        > If my house burns down because of my work and my insurance finds out A pretty remote If. If you're that worried about doing it wrong, then by all means hire an electrician.
  - VancouverMan 2y ago
    What's particularly annoying about a situation like that is that the homeowner often has a lot more incentive to do a good job than a so-called "trained and licensed" professional does. A moderately competent and motivated homeowner will often do a much better job than an "skilled expert" who rushes to get the work done.
  - alphabettsy 2y ago
    Where? I’m sure there are, but in all the places I’m aware of homeowners only need a licensed professional for certain things that are typically not DIY anyway.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >This type of thing is a major major source of post educational adult male socialization, and I think it's something that adult males need in a serious way. Why does DIY have to be male specific? The water running in your pipes and the electricity running in your wires give precisely zero fucks whether you have balls or breasts or something in-between.
  - nyokodo 2y ago
    > Why does DIY have to be male specific? The GP didn’t say women couldn’t be involved in DIY. Men expressing their need to commune with other men in doing practical tasks is obviously not universally excluding women from those tasks, it is a historically common and healthy practice of male to male friendship. Men should be able to express their simple needs without it being turned into a civil rights battle.
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      My inquiry is why men (or women for that matter) have to be specified at all. Balls and breasts are utterly irrelevant for DIY. I agree with the notion that the consequent socializing and sense of community that groups of DIYers could nurture is a very good thing, especially these days. Balls and breasts are irrelevant here too.
      - caseyy 2y ago
        Don't nitpick. :) We could remove superficial aspects from most texts to make them more sparse. It does not mean we should. The poster had men on their mind, and that is fine. This isn't a presidential address where every word will have reverberating cultural impact — it's a comment deep in a thread on HN. And you understood the core message, so it served its purpose. There are also things to be said about how men used to connect over DIY — there was a time a few generations back where men used to build each others' houses and cars. But my key point is that nitpicking stops conversations and ideas, let's not do that.
      - nyokodo 2y ago
        > Balls and breasts are utterly irrelevant Except, your reductionist take on men and women aside for the moment, it does matter in the context of the OP. Men, who exist and have specific needs, have a social need for friendship together that once was met in part by DIY but increasingly that isn’t happening or even possible and that is a loss for men and male mental health. Returning to your “balls and breasts” reductionism which I suspect is the true source of our disagreement, besides all other nuance most people including myself and presumably the OP accept the modest thesis that men and women have distinct needs in terms of mental health. Male mental health has been ignored and neglected for decades and this specific topic is a structural net loss for male mental health.
- bsder 2y ago
  > It's particularly strange considering YouTube now has a wealth of videos showing practically all aspects of how to do something. The problem is that those videos don't show when shit goes wrong. And that is almost always more important than showing when everything goes right. The advantage of learning this stuff from another human is that you get their oversight which hopefully prevents you from doing something with catastrophic consequences. For example: the best video I have seen about woodworking safety is YouTubers talking about their injuries. Specifically the Jimmy Diresta one where he did something dumb which injured his right forearm which took his attention which the caused him to put his left hand into the sawblade. That drove home why you use all the safety features every single time. Caution: NSFL https://youtu.be/Xc-lIs8VNIc?t=1091 https://youtu.be/Xc-lIs8VNIc?t=1091
rqtwteye 2y ago
"nothing is safe, always hire a professional" Very true. I used to do much more myself but this culture has really gotten to me. Trying to fight it at the moment.
- FpUser 2y ago
  Same here but I got cured pretty fast. My circuit breaker to central water heater got worn out. I bought new one but feeling lazy I called the company and they sent an electrician to do the rest. The electrician started with removing wrong knockouts. When I pointed it to him he said "it is ok". Fuckin no was my answer. But being reasonable I just covered those with some plastic glued using crazy glue. He than proceeds to work and after a while declares that the work is done. Well not so fast. Let's turn on the breaker and see if there is a current on wires. Lo and behold there is none. He then says that my water tank is bad. I am slowly getting mad, so I open the fucking box and what do I see - the fucker screwed 2 wires to go to heater to the left and right holes on the grounding plate. I took a picture of this sevenths wonder and when I pointed it out his answer once again was that "it is ok". This finally made my day. I told him to get the fuck out and I will do the job myself. He had the audacity to ask for pay. At this point I called the company, explained to them what just had happened and threatened them with the lawsuit. They apologized and promised not to charge my card.
whiterknight 2y ago
We also have a culture of building complex systems that rely on constant support from industrial society, over simple circuit boards which can live for decades.
happytoexplain 2y ago
We definitely have a safety-focused culture (for now - it's eroding). And sometimes that can be overbearing. But I disagree in the context of DYI. The culture that makes DYI intimidating is, "you don't know what you don't know - you are going to fuck something up". Physical danger is only one possible consequence. And to be fair, there is a good reason this warning developed. I think a better solution than simply saying something like "don't worry about what eggheads say, it's safe", or, "man up and do it yourself", is to instead focus on giving people the confidence to try things via better access to quality information, and, crucially, teaching the basics in school. Shop class needs to make a comeback in a big way. We've lost the engine of generational teaching, so we need to kickstart it again.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >context of DYI. The culture that makes DYI DIY: Do It Yourself
  - Incipient 2y ago
    DYI: Do Yourself In? Jokes aside. Some things are definitely too high consequence for DIY - like a lot of electrical work. Even a proper sparky here wired the earth into the neutral, which makes the entire house a death trap.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      I assume you're in the UK based on your use of the term "sparky"? How are things supposed to be wired there? In the US, we have neutral bonded to ground inside our mains panels. (I'm not an electrician, but I'll do most of my home electrical work myself. My dad taught me this stuff when I was 12, and I've only learned more and more since. I won't do everything, but it's honestly not as scary as some seem to think.)
      - worthless-trash 2y ago
        Same term is used in Australia.
bsder 2y ago
> and would save them a lot of money. The fact that the GFCI is wired wrong doesn't matter--until it does and then things are expensive. The fact that your solder joint on the plumbing is crap doesn't matter--until it does and then things are expensive. However, none of this is why Home Depot/Lowes are reporting numbers that are down. That's all about interest rates. Interest rates going up is slowing down house turnover. If your house isn't being sold, there isn't as much impetus to do work on it--especially when loans now cost more interest.
- ein0p 2y ago
  There’s literally a test button on any GFCI outlet or breaker which you can use to check if it’s wired right. And the wires are color coded and colors are marked on the back of the thing where you connect them. I pity the fool who pays several hundred dollars every time he/she needs to replace an electrical outlet.
  - treis 2y ago
    I don't think this ensures that you've correctly wired downstream outlets. The move to GFCI/afci breakers should really help diy electrical work. Much harder to make something dangerous with that protection.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      You can buy a little outlet tester that includes a test for GFCI functionality for under 15 bucks. Anyone doing this kind of work at home should have one. And I get that it's more stuff to buy, but I've been learning that for all sorts of home repairs, even if I have to buy new tools to do it, and only use that tool once, I still come out cheaper than hiring someone to do it. Sometimes a lot cheaper.
- oceanplexian 2y ago
  > The fact that the GFCI is wired wrong doesn't matter--until it does and then things are expensive Then don’t do it wrong. Perhaps use the unprecedented access to information in all of human history that anyone with a smartphone has access to. You know how many times I’ve hired a contractor or an auto mechanic and they did something dangerous or completely incorrect? Hundreds of times. If you can watch a YouTube video and follow instructions, you too can achieve screwing in three wires and watching a green LED come on.

by caseyy 2y ago

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

It's particularly strange considering YouTube now has a wealth of videos showing practically all aspects of how to do something. In my down time I've been helping out a bunch of home improvement projects being done by several other people just to help out This type of thing is a major major source of post educational adult male socialization, and I think it's something that adult males need in a serious way. I agree that the culture that surrounds it is kind of dying off. But it also might be a sign of the fact that housing is simply out of reach of an entire generation or perhaps even two generations now. Only old people have houses anymore might actually be true in a very very general sense. And young people with lots of energy and healthy backs have the time and motivation to DIY, if only they had their own houses.

bluGill 2y ago
Many cities don't allow diy. I know how but I'm not allowed.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  what city do you live in? How are you "not allowed"?
  - bluGill 2y ago
    I am not allowed to get a permit. I can cheat if it isn't visible from outside but if caught I'll be forced to pay someone to undo everything
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      "if caught" : how would that happen? You go to sell the house and the buyer demands to see all your permits? The city inspector barges into your house uninvited? Unless you're in a total buyer's market, you just sell to someone who isn't so nitpicky. Or you get a pro to inspect your work and attest that it's up to code (it would be, wouldn't it?)
  - qwerpy 2y ago
    Not OP but I live in Washington state. I recently added an outlet to my closet for a vacuum cleaner charger. I watched some instructional videos and did some reading and felt I could do it safely. Technically I’m “allowed” to do this but I needed to have gotten a permit and then gotten my work inspected, at significant time and money cost to myself. Did it anyway for the cost of the $10 outlet and an hour of time. If my house burns down because of my work and my insurance finds out they could deny me the claim. I’d be out of a lot of money.
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      > If my house burns down because of my work and my insurance finds out A pretty remote If. If you're that worried about doing it wrong, then by all means hire an electrician.
- VancouverMan 2y ago
  What's particularly annoying about a situation like that is that the homeowner often has a lot more incentive to do a good job than a so-called "trained and licensed" professional does. A moderately competent and motivated homeowner will often do a much better job than an "skilled expert" who rushes to get the work done.
- alphabettsy 2y ago
  Where? I’m sure there are, but in all the places I’m aware of homeowners only need a licensed professional for certain things that are typically not DIY anyway.
Dalewyn 2y ago
>This type of thing is a major major source of post educational adult male socialization, and I think it's something that adult males need in a serious way. Why does DIY have to be male specific? The water running in your pipes and the electricity running in your wires give precisely zero fucks whether you have balls or breasts or something in-between.
- nyokodo 2y ago
  > Why does DIY have to be male specific? The GP didn’t say women couldn’t be involved in DIY. Men expressing their need to commune with other men in doing practical tasks is obviously not universally excluding women from those tasks, it is a historically common and healthy practice of male to male friendship. Men should be able to express their simple needs without it being turned into a civil rights battle.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    My inquiry is why men (or women for that matter) have to be specified at all. Balls and breasts are utterly irrelevant for DIY. I agree with the notion that the consequent socializing and sense of community that groups of DIYers could nurture is a very good thing, especially these days. Balls and breasts are irrelevant here too.
    - caseyy 2y ago
      Don't nitpick. :) We could remove superficial aspects from most texts to make them more sparse. It does not mean we should. The poster had men on their mind, and that is fine. This isn't a presidential address where every word will have reverberating cultural impact — it's a comment deep in a thread on HN. And you understood the core message, so it served its purpose. There are also things to be said about how men used to connect over DIY — there was a time a few generations back where men used to build each others' houses and cars. But my key point is that nitpicking stops conversations and ideas, let's not do that.
    - nyokodo 2y ago
      > Balls and breasts are utterly irrelevant Except, your reductionist take on men and women aside for the moment, it does matter in the context of the OP. Men, who exist and have specific needs, have a social need for friendship together that once was met in part by DIY but increasingly that isn’t happening or even possible and that is a loss for men and male mental health. Returning to your “balls and breasts” reductionism which I suspect is the true source of our disagreement, besides all other nuance most people including myself and presumably the OP accept the modest thesis that men and women have distinct needs in terms of mental health. Male mental health has been ignored and neglected for decades and this specific topic is a structural net loss for male mental health.
bsder 2y ago
> It's particularly strange considering YouTube now has a wealth of videos showing practically all aspects of how to do something. The problem is that those videos don't show when shit goes wrong. And that is almost always more important than showing when everything goes right. The advantage of learning this stuff from another human is that you get their oversight which hopefully prevents you from doing something with catastrophic consequences. For example: the best video I have seen about woodworking safety is YouTubers talking about their injuries. Specifically the Jimmy Diresta one where he did something dumb which injured his right forearm which took his attention which the caused him to put his left hand into the sawblade. That drove home why you use all the safety features every single time. Caution: NSFL https://youtu.be/Xc-lIs8VNIc?t=1091 https://youtu.be/Xc-lIs8VNIc?t=1091

rqtwteye 2y ago

"nothing is safe, always hire a professional" Very true. I used to do much more myself but this culture has really gotten to me. Trying to fight it at the moment.

FpUser 2y ago
Same here but I got cured pretty fast. My circuit breaker to central water heater got worn out. I bought new one but feeling lazy I called the company and they sent an electrician to do the rest. The electrician started with removing wrong knockouts. When I pointed it to him he said "it is ok". Fuckin no was my answer. But being reasonable I just covered those with some plastic glued using crazy glue. He than proceeds to work and after a while declares that the work is done. Well not so fast. Let's turn on the breaker and see if there is a current on wires. Lo and behold there is none. He then says that my water tank is bad. I am slowly getting mad, so I open the fucking box and what do I see - the fucker screwed 2 wires to go to heater to the left and right holes on the grounding plate. I took a picture of this sevenths wonder and when I pointed it out his answer once again was that "it is ok". This finally made my day. I told him to get the fuck out and I will do the job myself. He had the audacity to ask for pay. At this point I called the company, explained to them what just had happened and threatened them with the lawsuit. They apologized and promised not to charge my card.

whiterknight 2y ago

We also have a culture of building complex systems that rely on constant support from industrial society, over simple circuit boards which can live for decades.

happytoexplain 2y ago

We definitely have a safety-focused culture (for now - it's eroding). And sometimes that can be overbearing. But I disagree in the context of DYI. The culture that makes DYI intimidating is, "you don't know what you don't know - you are going to fuck something up". Physical danger is only one possible consequence. And to be fair, there is a good reason this warning developed. I think a better solution than simply saying something like "don't worry about what eggheads say, it's safe", or, "man up and do it yourself", is to instead focus on giving people the confidence to try things via better access to quality information, and, crucially, teaching the basics in school. Shop class needs to make a comeback in a big way. We've lost the engine of generational teaching, so we need to kickstart it again.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>context of DYI. The culture that makes DYI DIY: Do It Yourself
- Incipient 2y ago
  DYI: Do Yourself In? Jokes aside. Some things are definitely too high consequence for DIY - like a lot of electrical work. Even a proper sparky here wired the earth into the neutral, which makes the entire house a death trap.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    I assume you're in the UK based on your use of the term "sparky"? How are things supposed to be wired there? In the US, we have neutral bonded to ground inside our mains panels. (I'm not an electrician, but I'll do most of my home electrical work myself. My dad taught me this stuff when I was 12, and I've only learned more and more since. I won't do everything, but it's honestly not as scary as some seem to think.)
    - worthless-trash 2y ago
      Same term is used in Australia.

bsder 2y ago

> and would save them a lot of money. The fact that the GFCI is wired wrong doesn't matter--until it does and then things are expensive. The fact that your solder joint on the plumbing is crap doesn't matter--until it does and then things are expensive. However, none of this is why Home Depot/Lowes are reporting numbers that are down. That's all about interest rates. Interest rates going up is slowing down house turnover. If your house isn't being sold, there isn't as much impetus to do work on it--especially when loans now cost more interest.

ein0p 2y ago
There’s literally a test button on any GFCI outlet or breaker which you can use to check if it’s wired right. And the wires are color coded and colors are marked on the back of the thing where you connect them. I pity the fool who pays several hundred dollars every time he/she needs to replace an electrical outlet.
- treis 2y ago
  I don't think this ensures that you've correctly wired downstream outlets. The move to GFCI/afci breakers should really help diy electrical work. Much harder to make something dangerous with that protection.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    You can buy a little outlet tester that includes a test for GFCI functionality for under 15 bucks. Anyone doing this kind of work at home should have one. And I get that it's more stuff to buy, but I've been learning that for all sorts of home repairs, even if I have to buy new tools to do it, and only use that tool once, I still come out cheaper than hiring someone to do it. Sometimes a lot cheaper.
oceanplexian 2y ago
> The fact that the GFCI is wired wrong doesn't matter--until it does and then things are expensive Then don’t do it wrong. Perhaps use the unprecedented access to information in all of human history that anyone with a smartphone has access to. You know how many times I’ve hired a contractor or an auto mechanic and they did something dangerous or completely incorrect? Hundreds of times. If you can watch a YouTube video and follow instructions, you too can achieve screwing in three wires and watching a green LED come on.